Mariska Perdick: Alright. We’re gonna go ahead and start with some of the basics. So just go ahead and state your name for me.  

 

Fred Garner: Fred Garner.  

 

MP: Alright. Where did you grow up?

 

FG: Tuscaloosa.

 

MP: Okay. Do you have any siblings?

 

FG: Two brothers.

 

MP: Tell me about them.

 

FG: Well, my baby brother, we’re very close. I mean, we talk every day and all that. We’ve always been close, our whole- whole life. And my middle brother, I don’t see him but once a year at a reunion. We’re not really close or nothing like that. So, sometimes I don’t realize I have a- two brothers, you know, because I just - we’re not close. So that’s about it, you know.

 

MP: Okay. Where do you consider your home? Would you consider it Tuscaloosa?

 

FG: Oh yes. I’ve lived- well, for a brief period in Atlanta and a few years in Jackson Mississippi, I’ve always lived here, you know.  

 

MP: So what did you- what were you doing that made you move to those places?

 

FG: Well Atlanta was uh- there was a guy that I was in love with, and he moved there, and I ended up moving over there to be with him. And didn’t work out, so I moved back, and only stayed like two months, and- and went back about three weeks later for two weeks I stayed over there and tried to make it without him, and couldn’t do it. So I was down there for two months like two weeks (laughs). And Jackson when I lived there was just- I moved down there to live with my mother for ‘bout three years, you know, when I was having a little problems or whatever. So, you know.  

 

~

 

Carleigh Mcdaniel: So the next section is more about your childhood.  

 

FG: Uh-huh.

 

CM: What family members were in your household growing up?

 

FG: Uh- my dad, my step-mother, my two brothers. My mother- they divorced when I was like six, so she lived in Jackson Mississippi, but we was always close too.  

 

CM: What was your relationship like with the people in your household?

 

FG: Typically it was good, you know. We grew up in the country out in Vance and dad was- you know, he was a redneck type, you know, thing. But he was very, you know, loving, and all that, you know. Didn’t show it sometimes, but you know. But- it was- it was good- you know, it was good.  

 

CM: Did people know you were gay when you were growing up?

 

FG: I didn’t even know- I think I was, I mean, you know, but- but no, uh, they didn’t find out ‘til like I was nineteen, like- or I didn’t tell ‘em, you know, but- I’m sure they may have figured it out since I never dated girls or did anything like that, you know. But back then, you know, you didn’t- that wasn’t talked about or whatever.  

 

CM: What was your experience like in school?

 

FG: Uh, well I only went to high school, and I was a- basically a introvert. I didn’t really have a lot of friends per se, ‘cause I just didn’t really- I just kinda faded in the background or whatever. Back this past summer we had our fiftieth year class reunion, and I went to it. Saw a lot of people I knew back then, but I realized- I said, all these people, you know, they weren’t friends, you know, they were people I remember from school but we really wasn’t friends and all that. Like they knew me when I- I thought, you don’t really remember me back then (laughs). But they- some of them said they did, but you know (laughs).  

 

CM: What activities were you involved in in school?

 

FG: Uh- nothing. No really, I wasn't, I was, uh- I’d go home, I- I used to read all the time, I would go work out in the yard, and do stuff like that. But I really didn’t do anything at school- you know, school. Curricular activities, stuff like that, you know.

 

CM: How were you taught about the LGBTQ community growing up?

 

FG: Uh- I really didn’t- my first experience of that was going down to a- Wilco and I don’t know y’all remember a book came out then- everything you want to know about sex but is afraid to ask, or something like that, it was a book back then. And that’s where I first started reading about LBG and all that, you know, and it wasn’t called that back then, just gay, you know. But that was probably the first experience actually seeing anything else, you know, as far as that, you know. But I didn’t really get out in the gay life until I was…25, I guess, you know.  

 

~

 

CM: Did you have any, like, influences from older gay people?

 

FG: Uh, I didn’t really meet a gay- like [inaudible] gay person until I was about 25.  

 

MP: So, what was that experience like when you were 25, like how did you kind of get into that community space?

 

FG: Uh, well, I didn’t have any gay friends before then, and, uh- I- honestly the first time I met a gay person was- I saw a ad in the newspaper for somebody looking for a roommate, and, uh- renting a room in a house, you know, and I- anyway, I went and talked to him, and I just kinda got a vibe about him, and we- I didn’t move in with him or do anything like that, but we ended up being friends and we became kinda close and all that for about a year or so then he moved to San Francisco, and, uh. But that was my first experience with a gay man, you know.  

 

~

 

CM: Who were you close with growing up?

 

FG: Mostly my women, uh, relatives. My aunts, you know, I was always- growing up I- I never played with, uh, boys and the cousins, it was always the girls. I was always with the girls. [inaudible], you know, we used to play dolls and house and all of that stuff, and I always did all of that stuff, so I was- basically my dad had three boys, he always wanted a girl, and I always told him, said well you got- I was your girl, you know.

 

ALL: (laugh)

 

FG: But anyway. ‘Cause I liked to cook, and I liked to do a lot of stuff that typically wasn’t masculine, you know.  

 

MP: Do you think that, growing up, they knew that you were gay? Or, like, had a suspicion?

 

FG: Yeah, I’ve wondered ‘bout that, because that was something- I didn’t even know if my dad would have even known about that, you know, ‘cause it’s- he’s so, you know, country and all that. I just don’t know if he woulda- even when I came out, his first reaction was to send me to a psychiatrist, you know, to see if he could cure me, you know, so like that, you know. But um, and that- and I understand him now, looking back, that that was just the way he, you know, he looked at things. You know, he didn’t really- you know. So, you know, he really wasn’t- I- I realized, you know, when I was in my 20s, early 20s, even before I came out at 25, that I was gay, because I had a few, you know, things with guys, you know, whatever, you know. Uh, it wasn’t really wasn’t anything serious with anybody, it was just something happening, you know.  

 

MP: So for the most part, you would say, like, even the women in your family that you were close with, they just kinda like didn’t really think anything of this?

 

FG: If they did, they didn’t- we didn’t talk about it, or they didn’t say anything. I’m sure they probably did, you know, just ‘cause the way I, you know, did. I mean, I wasn’t flaming or whatever, you know, but I was still, you know. Did a lot of things that most guys wouldn’t do, you know, so, whatever.  

 

~

 

MP: [inaudible] How did you find- so we know- we’ve heard a little bit about you. So we heard that you did drag, and we were wondering how you found that community in Tuscaloosa.  

 

FG: Well, I never was in the drag community-

 

MP: Okay.

 

FG: Really, I was- I started doing drag ‘cause when I was young, ‘fore I came out, I used to think I was born- this [inaudible] trans and all this, I always thought I was a woman in a man’s body. I used to think I was- I wanted to be a woman, you know. And I- I wanted to get married, I wanted to have kids, I used to think about that stuff ‘fore I came out, you know. And uh, even told my mother one time that and she said, well if that’s what you want, but of course- I don’t think she really understood the whole thing, but you know, but she was uh- yeah, I was, uh- um- used to think I wouldn’t could be happy unless I was married or had a white picket fence, all that kind of stuff, you know. Back then, before I realized- I came out in the gay life, you know. But uh- uh- and- does that answer your question? I forgot what the question was really, you know.

 

MP: It did. So, I have another question like based off that one.

 

FG: Uh-huh.

 

MP: So, how did you kinda like- when you started doing drag, like, how did you-

 

FG: Oh, well I-

 

MP: Sorry.  

 

~

 

FG: Just ‘cause I thought I- I felt like a woman inside, you know, I used to like to dress up in- well I remember even as a kid going to my mother’s house in Mississippi in the summertime. I would go down for a month. I remember I used to put her jewelry on, and, you know, put curtains ‘round me like a drape or dress or something. I used to do that stuff when I was like fourteen or fifteen, you know. And, uh, first doing drag, it was just a- it was just a excuse to get dressed like a woman. I wanted to do that, you know, and so. I didn’t start doing drag ‘til, like, several years after that, and it was just kind of like a [inaudible]. I mean, I didn’t do it like- I wasn’t on the circuit doing all this, I was just- when they’d have a show, and I’d say- they’d say, you wanna do it? I said, sure, you know, it was like one of those things. But I- once a year, or something like that, you know.  

 

MP: Okay. So, how long did you do drag for?

 

FG: Well, ‘86 was the first year I did it, you know, in an actual bar. And- I actually- he told me if I had any pictures that-

 

MP: Yes.

 

FG: This is- this is my first drag show I did. All of my drag pictures- I had a bunch of ‘em that were really good, but I gave ‘em to that guy at Birmingham. The guy- do y’all know him?

 

MP: Yes, Josh.

 

Luke Martin: Yeah, yeah.

 

FG: But I gave ‘em to him, but I went through all mine and found some. But this is the first show I ever did in ‘86.

 

MP: Oh, that is so cool.

 

FG: (laughs)

 

MP: Everyone pass it around?

 

CM: Can I take a picture?

 

FG: Sure.

 

LM: Oh wow.  

 

MP: We can do it at the end too, if that’s easier.  

 

FG: Oh, okay, thank you.  

 

MP: So, um, did you friends or family ever find out you did drag?

 

FG: Oh yeah, I told ‘em.

 

MP: Okay.

 

FG: I never- I never hid anything, I was always open about everything, you know.

 

MP: How did they react to that?

 

FG: Well, first time my dad ever saw me in drag was uh- I had gone- we had left the bar that night with a friend of mine. He was driving, and he ran-he went through a red light, and we got hit by another car.  

 

LM: Oh no.

 

FG: And- and course the police came and all that, and of course, I was still in my outfit. I- I had actually taken my clothes off, and changed back into clothes, but I still had red fingernails on, you know, makeup. And, when the police came out there, my glasses got thrown off, so I was down on the floorboards looking for my glasses, and they came, and they thought I was drunk the way I was-

 

MP: Looking for ‘em.

 

FG: [inaudible] And so they took me in too. I wasn’t drunk, I hadn’t been drinking nothing, you know. Of course my friend was, you know. But anyway, when my dad came down to get me out, bail me out, course I had broken off my fingernails by then, course they were still red, you know, and I still had makeup on, you know. And uh, well you know dad never said anything about it (laughs). He never did (laughs).  

 

MP: What did the police say when they came?

 

FG: Uh, yeah I really don’t remember, about- you know, I was just kinda- I was so worried ‘bout my friend, you know.  

 

MP: Yeah.

 

FG: And, uh- and he was drunk, of couse, you know. I mean, I let him drive- well, I think I did try not to let him drive. He was- he insisted, but anyway. But uh, and uh- anyway, I was more worried about him and everything- but uh- cause he was like ten years younger than I was at the time, you know, and anyway. But uh, he hadn’t came out to his parents yet either (laughs).  

 

MP: So, what’s your favorite memory from doing drag?

 

FG: Uh- I just uh- I always enjoyed the- putting it together, because um- I used to work for a lady at the flower shop, and she always used to go to the Salvation Army with me and help me pick out dresses, she’d let me borrow her jewelry. She’d let- she was very open about everything about that, and uh- course I had other friends. There was a hairdresser, he did my wigs. Or I had a straight friend, a woman, that would do my wig when he couldn’t, for some reason. Cause it was always some- it was always- I never did anything. You know, so they did makeup, somebody else did this. I always had, like- and it wasn’t ever always the same ones all the time, either. So you know, it was whoever I got to do it, you know. So- but I enjoyed all that. Putting it together and all that, you know. And, uh- I guess one of the best ones I remember was we used to- we did a show down in uh- it was a Black club down Highway 11, out west. It was called uh- um- oh shit, I can’t remember the name of it-

 

MP: You’re fine.

 

FG: Anyway, it was a straight Black club-

 

MP: Yeah.

 

FG: And they had heard that we was doing shows down at the Chukker, which was a little bar downtown, and they called me up, called- not me, but a friend of mine who was- wanted to know if we would do a show down at their, uh- bar one night. And we did, we went down, and four of us did. We- it was all Black- well we had some- lot of gay people came down here for it, but it was mostly Blacks, you know, and straights, you know, but we had a great time there. All the Blacks loved us, you know (laughs). So uh, that was a fun time then. I remember that.  

 

MP: Okay. So, I know you talked about when you were younger how you felt more comfortable, like, dressing up. Do you think that you felt more comfortable in drag?

 

FG: I loved it, yeah. I felt pretty, I felt- whatever, you know. So uh- yeah, it was a turn on for me to do it, you know.  

 

MP: Mm-hmm. Do you think that there was a certain, like, quality about your drag persona that you wish you could have, like, in everyday life?

 

FG: Well, at one time, like I said I- I really wanted to be- I thought a woman, you know. Course I finally played it away and all that, you know. But uh, when I started doing drag and all that I kinda, you know, enjoyed that, you know, and well I lived through that part, you know. But, you know, I realized I didn’t want to be a woman, I just- was a thing I had one time when I was younger, you know. But uh, cause somebody told me if you wanted to be a woman it’d be possessing you like 24/7, you know, you’d be thinking ‘bout that- which I didn’t, you know.  

 

MP: Yeah. Okay, my last question is can you describe one of your favorite costumes you ever wore?

 

FG: Uh-

 

MP: If you had a favorite, or just like one that really stood out to you.

 

FG: Well, I mean, my signature- always did- everybody loved it, was I always, uh- course I did Loretta Lynn, country, and my signature song was uh- One’s On the Way, where I was pregnant (laughs). In fact, did y’all see the video from the people up there?  

 

MP: No, I did not.  

 

LM: We have not seen this.

 

FG: I’ve got it here if y’all wanna see it. The video of the show I did.

 

MP: I would love to see it.  

 

LM: That would be lovely.

 

MP: Yeah.

 

Maggie Jutze: Yes.

 

FG: And you can see the video, but uh- this is probably one of my favorite pictures here just because it’s so- (laughs).  

 

CM: That’s amazing.  

 

MP: These are so great.  

 

FG: But, these got wet a long time- that’s why I got that little thing around and all that, you know.

 

MP: Who would take these pictures?  

 

FG: Just people that- yeah, that was helping me get ready and all that, you know.

 

MP: Mm-hmm.

 

FG: That was my best friend right there, and uh, he- you know, so, uh.

 

LM: I love- I love the wedding dress. That’s beautiful.

 

MP: What was- what was your best friend’s name?

 

FG: James.

 

MP: James. Can you tell me a little bit more about him?

 

FG: He was one of the first gay people I met when I came out in ‘79. And, uh- funny story ‘bout how we met him. The guy that I told you I met from the- looking for the room and all that, and we became friends?

 

MP: Mm-hmm.

 

FG: He invited me to go to Memphis one weekend, to a gay bar up there. And when I went over to his house to get- I thought it was just going to be him going. When I got over there, there was two other guys there. Course I didn’t know- I thought it was gonna be me and him. And James was one of ‘em, and I didn’t- I’d never met him. And he thought the same thing, he hadn’t met him, he thought it was just gonna be me and him too, and- and the other guy- there was a third guy, like I don’t know how he felt. Anyway, we ended up going there and we- me and James were both real pissed off or whatever, you know. And so me and James was sitting in the backseat and the other guy- he kinda took over, Chip, you know, and sat in the front seat. But we spent the weekend in Memphis, and me and James kinda got to be- know each other, just ‘cause we were thrown together, you know. I wasn’t sexually attracted to him, we never was, so that’s one reason we became such friends. But we got back to Tuscaloosa, he gave me his phone number, and I didn’t think I’d see him again but one night I- I don’t know how I was after that. I never had smoked pot before and I smoked a joint. And I got real buzzed, and I got real paranoid. And I called James up, and I said, I just don’t feel right. He came over to my house, you know, and so we became friends after that. He became my best friend, you know. So, you know (laughs).  

 

MP: (laughs)

 

CM: So are y’all still close?

 

FG: No, he died back in 2004, something like that, you know. I’ve had a lot of friends that have died from AIDS and stuff in the last thirty years.  

 

CM: So, how would you define family?

 

FG: Uh- well, just people you love, I guess. I mean, I’ve got some friends that we’re still friends after forty years, then- course they’re all 70s and 80s now (laughs). I’m still- you know, or- someone’s- I got one that’s 58, he’s the youngest one. And, uh- but, you know. As I’ve gotten older, it’s like now I’m more of a recluse kinda type, you know I don’t see him as much, you know. I still talk to him a lot, you know. But, I mean, I consider him my family, you know, not just- not my biological- like me and my brother- little brother’s real close, you know. Course all my other kins are, you know- mother and all them’s gone, you know. But, um- but, um.

 

CM: So, what was it like when your family learned you were gay?

 

FG: Well, it was- I didn’t have drama or nothing like that, you know, it’s like- like I said, my dad, first thing he wanted to do- go see a psychiatrist. So I did. Fell in love with my psychiatrist (laughs).

 

MP: (laughs) What did your psychiatrist say?

 

FG: Well, he told me the technical term for this is called transference. When I started seeing him I- all these weeks I was going, I started looking forward to seeing him-

 

ALL: (laugh)

 

FG: And I just started feeling feelings for him, you know. And so he told me- transference- it was- it’s a common thing that happens. Course he had to take himself off the thing, and after I stopped seeing him, I stopped going then. I didn’t think it was doing me anything anyway, you know. But- (laughs)

 

CM: Did your relationship change with them after they found out?  

 

FG: No.

 

CM: Or was it still kind of the same?

 

FG: My- my- even my dad, it never changed with him. Course he’d never ask about stuff, you know, but- my step-mother, my mother were both really- they wanted to know things going on, I used to tell- I mean, I always been a big- I don’t keep things in, I tell things, you know. Especially back then, when I drank a lot, I called my mother up and I’d talk for hours to her and tell her everything. And she told me one time when I was stopped drinking, she said, I miss the days you used to call me up and just talk, talk, talk when you was drinking. You don’t call me like you used to (laughs). I’d say, well I’m not drinking (laughs).  

 

ALL: (laugh)

 

FG: But-

 

MP: So-

 

FG: But no, my family was really- only one I really had trouble with, my brother- my middle brother.  

 

MP: Yeah.

 

FG: He kinda- he kinda was- he didn’t do anything- you know, anything bad, he just kinda didn’t approve of it.  

 

MP: Mm-hmm.

 

FG: And then later when he became a Christian, he asked forgiveness because he said, I hated the way I treated you back then and everything, so. Anyway, so.

 

MP: Are you still close with, like, your step-brother? Or do you talk to him, like, at all?

 

FG: My step-brother? I don’t have a step-brother.  

 

MP: Oh, step- what? Did I-

 

FG: I have a step-mother.  

 

MP: I’m losing my mind, I’m sorry. Do you- well- I guess that’s not a good question anymore then.  

 

FG: Now my step-mother died-  

 

MP: I don’t know why-

 

FG: She died about ten years ago, you know, and my mother died about six years ago, so uh-

 

MP: I’m so sorry, I misheard-

 

FG: Oh, no, no, no, no, no-

 

MP: I don’t know where I got that from.  

 

FG: You might have thought my middle brother I told you I wasn’t close to him-

 

MP: Yeah.  

 

FG: All these- all these years, because he just- well he wasn’t close to any family, he just kind of distanced himself from- from everybody, you know.

 

MP: Yeah. I think I heard step-mother, and then I was like- I was like-

 

FG: Step-mother, yeah that was my- I had two mothers. I never understood her as a step-mother, she was- you know, she married my dad when I was fourteen, so she was always been there so, you know, I had two mothers, you know. I didn’t really have-

 

MP: Yeah.

 

CM: So, are you a mentor for others in the community, or are there people that, like, look up to you?

 

FG: Uh- don’t think so. There’s probably- remember all the stuff I did in the past and they go oh (laughs). No. I mean, I- you know, I wouldn’t say that, you know, I mean, I we’ve all had our past and everything, you know, but, uh- but I’m still friends with a lot of the people back then, you know, and so.

 

MP: Okay. What was your experience with religion like as a child?

 

FG: Well, I grew up in the church. We went to church every Sunday, when it was open every Wednesday we went. You know, every time the doors opened we went. When I turned- when I moved out of the house at uh- 19, 18 and a half, I haven’t been to church since.  

 

MP: Mm-hmm.

 

FG: I may have been going to something. I’ve never gone back to church, I’ve never been religious, uh- I resented my dad making me go all the time-

 

MP: Mm-hmm.

 

FG: So, you know. Anyway, so, I’m not religious.

 

MP: Okay. How do you think religion affects gay people in the South?

 

FG: Well, personally I haven’t really known anything bad, but of what I’ve read, you know. Lot of people haven’t accepted their kids, or something like that, you know. I don’t really personally [inaudible]- I’ve never heard of anything bad or whatever, you know, so.  

 

MP: So for the most part you just kind of stopped being religious after you moved out?

 

FG: Yes. I never was really religious, even going to church all the time. I just never been a religious person. I just can’t-

 

MP: Okay.

 

FG: I just couldn’t- I couldn’t rationalize what they was telling me, and all that, you know. So I just, you know. I believe- I believe that when you die, we go to another- something else. I don’t think that’s it, you know.  

 

MP: Yeah.

 

FG: I just don’t- do the Baptist thing, you know.  

 

MP: So you were Baptist growing up?

 

FG: Oh yeah.

 

MP: Okay.  

 

FG: (laughs)

 

CM: Do you want to do this one?

 

MP: Doesn’t matter. Go ahead.

 

CM: So, do you currently have a partner?

 

FG: You- you met him.

 

ALL: (laugh)

 

CM: How did y’all meet?

 

FG: (whispers) I gotta be careful ‘cause he gets weird ‘bout me talking ‘bout him. (yells) Vic? Vic? We been seeing each other twenty-three years. And he’s been married three times since I’ve known him. Got three kids. He’s never came out to anybody besides me and my friends. And he’s- he’s- he’s really not- he’ll say he’s not gay- he’s probably bi, you know. But we been seeing each other for twenty-three years, and I think the reason we got along so long is that I’ve never fell in love with him. I love him, but I never fell in love with him. All in the past, everybody I fell in love with, I usually ruined it because I was so jealous, or did stuff, you know. But I never had a relationship, really, it was just always I was in love with somebody, and they were like friends with me or whatever, but, uh- but I met him back in ‘99, and uh- we’ve been seeing each other ever since. I moved in here three years ago, and uh- it’s kinda strange you know, I- it works for me, you know, and it works for him, you know, and so uh- but he would- he would die if he knew we was talking ‘bout that right now, you know.  

 

MP: Well, you got the cute dog out of it, right?

 

FG: Oh yeah [laughs], well that’s his dog, you see– see…well, you know part– part me too.

 

CM: So, what was dating like for you growing up?

 

FG: Well, I never dated, you know, in high school. The only– Well, I dated one girl in high school. Only reason I did that was because she wouldn’t leave me alone; she kept showing up outside my classroom, or whatever when I was a senior. And her name was Joyce, and we’re still friends, we still talk all the time after 50 years. And then when I graduated we didn’t– we never went out. She just would follow me around school– well, she would always show up and I didn’t– it just– it irritated me because I didn’t– I wasn’t attracted to her. Well I couldn’t say anything about it, and when I graduated I thought “Well, I won’t see her anymore”. Well, she kept calling me and so– and my parents, they’d found out I was seeing this girl– I was seeing Joyce– they loved her automatically because first girl I ever– had– had– whatever, I did go on a few dates with her. We ended up going to Opera Land one summer and she went with us. My parents were just ecstatic about that. Of course, at that time I hadn’t come out gay or whatever. But uh… but one day I told her. I finally- we went to– that was the only girl I ever dated my whole life, and we finally tried to have sex, first time. Went to bed and as soon as I saw her getting undressed, I knew I couldn’t do it. When I kissed her– and this is awful, I know this, but I still remember the exact way I felt. We were sitting on– up on Peterson at the locked dam up there and we kissed, and I thought I was kissing a piece of liver. That’s what I thought! [laughs]  

 

ALL: [laughs]

 

FG: I know that’s awful, but…50 years later I still– that’s– that memory right there. And I finally told her– in fact it was up there– I told her that uh, I was gay. Of course it– she was really religious and all that, and she didn’t talk to me for a year after that. But then she came back around and we did talk, and ever since she’s– we’re real good friends still. We talk about maybe once every two or three months. She’ll call me on my birthday every year, she always remembers all that. She told me a few years ago that her son– she had one child– her son came out, he’s gay. I thought “how ironic that her– Joyce’s first love, me, was gay, and now her only son is gay”. Anyway…

 

CM: So how did you meet other gay people?

 

FG: Well when I came out in ‘79– well I said “came out”, but when I started going to gay bars in Birmingham– that’s where, when I met Chip– that guy I told you about– and through him I met other people, James and some other people. So, I started getting a, you know, a network of people I knew, you know. So we used to go to Birmingham like every weekend, and I’d meet people up there you know, and basically that was how I started you know, getting in the gay life you know– through Birmingham and the gay bars, you know. And then after that I made more friends and really started developing friendships and all that you know. ‘Cause I didn’t really have friends growing up in high school or even my first you know, five years out of high school, you know. Most of my friends were family. My aunts I was real close to; I used to talk to them about my gay stuff you know, and just like them. But you know I didn’t really have a– just a, I’ll say “friend” until I was…25.

 

CM: Did you feel that there was a supportive community in Tuscaloosa?

 

FG: Hmm… well… I don’t know the answer to that… uh, I mean all the people I knew was real supportive. I– I– you know… and like I said, everybody that I knew, even straight people were– I was real supported, I didn’t have any problems with anybody my whole life, except one time I moved to Atlanta and I lived in an apartment over there and one of the uh, landlords came up one time and started calling us f------ and to get out of there and you know. But other than that I’ve never had any kind of problem with anything.

 

MP: That’s wonderful.

 

CM: So how did you learn about LGBTQ spaces in Tuscaloosa? Was it like through your friends?

 

FG: Yeah, you know– you talking about like, places you go to?

 

CM: Yeah, like gay bars or just safe spaces.

 

FG: Oh yeah, there’s cruisy places like the Ferguson center, used to be a real cruisy place at the University. The Union Hall, uh, Phifer Hall now…

 

MP: Reese-Phifer now?

 

FG: Yeah there used to be a room, in the bathroom, back there everybody used to go there. I mean that’s how we used to meet people back then. ‘Cause there wasn’t no gay bars back then– not in Tuscaloosa. You know it was ‘86 when the first gay bar opened up here.

 

MP: You performed at Michael’s? Or Chukker’s?

 

FG: Well, Chukker’s the first time, and then Deja Vu, which opened in ‘86– that was in that picture. And then Michael’s. And then we had a couple other places here in Tuscaloosa that they did one-off things, like– there was this pizza place that closed one night and we used it for a– had a show down there. And there was another place by the bowling alley over on 15th street– they closed one night and we– So, you know it’s, it was just cool.

 

MP: So I know that you haven’t been doing drag for a while. Um, and from what I gather you stay home for the most part?

 

FG: Well, for the last three– I’ve only been using this [walker] for the last couple years you know, and…really the last three years I– my mobility’s kinda gone down uh. But before that you know, I was still going– I didn’t go to gay bars you know, of course after Michael’s closed in ‘07 or ‘09 you know, I really hadn’t been to any of them except– I went to ICON a couple times here the last few years, but I felt like an old grandpa in that room. [laughs]

 

MP: So, other than ICON do you think any places that are like gay friendly still exist in Tuscaloosa? Or do you know of any?

 

FG: Uh, I really don’t, you know– not now– I really– you know…

 

MP: Okay. What changes do you see happening in Tuscaloosa for the gay youth?

 

FG: Well I realize now that you know this– with social media and all that it’s so much easier to meet people now. You know back in my day it was like you either met them at the bar or you went cruising at the Ferguson Center or something like that, or meet through other people at a party– used to have a lot of parties back then. Everybody used to have parties and– we used to– you’d meet people through that you know, but now I mean– I…I’m not really sure now how it works because I’ve just been so out of the loop so long as far as doing anything.

 

MP: No, you’re fine. Where were the parties?

 

FG: At people’s houses, oh yeah. Everybody would have one weekend maybe and you know, might not every weekend, but you know once a month or every few weeks, everybody would have a party or something you know.

 

MP: Was it like the most– like the same people for the most part?

 

FG: Usually it was, but we would have new people come in– somebody else would bring somebody, but had core people that always got together you know.

 

MP: Could you tell me a little bit about them?

 

FG: Yeah there was several I had– I considered my core people you know.

 

MP: Yeah.

 

FG: And uh, I was close to all of them. Some of them I had romantic feelings for that– you know good thing I had– they were good friends to me because there were times– sometimes when I could get real jealous. Especially after I told ‘em I was in love with ‘em, and they just said “Fred I just want to be friends I can’t– you know I don’t feel that same way about you”. Course I’d go on anyway. I was a mess back then as far as that. But uh, I had a lot of friends back then, I really did. And still got– about four or five still around you know. But most of ‘em uh live out of town now– they’re all like– I’ve got a couple that just turned 80 so that tells you how but uh. My youngest one friend is uh, he’s 57 and I met him when he was 19 and we’ve been friends all this time, you know. He was– he was a cutie back then, I remember that you know, I fell in love with him too.  

 

MP: Where did you meet him?

 

FG: Through another friend, he was–

 

MP: Through another friend?

 

FG: Yup, yup– He was at his house or whatever you know. And when I met somebody if I fell for you the first time you couldn't get rid of me. I mean I’m serious! I don’t sound very flattering– it’s not really– but I– I was kind of a… I don’t know what you call it, you know, but uh.

 

MP: Okay. Would you say that you have any distrust in either the Alabama government or the police?

 

FG: No.

 

MP: Okay. Alright…

 

FG: I get mad now when I see stuff on Facebook or on whatever about police– of course you know back then you wouldn’t see but there was probably a lot of stuff went on you wouldn’t have known about because nobody had cameras. Now all this stuff going on now just makes– I don’t even want to watch it sometimes or keep it on– it just makes me furious– mad or whatever you know some of the stuff that’s going on.

 

MP: Do you think that your life would’ve been different if you didn’t live in the South?

 

FG: Uh, I don’t know if I lived in a big city, maybe it would’ve been – you know it could’ve been, but I like– I’m glad I– I’ve had a great life, I’ve liked it, you know. It’s been you know… never had– except for… a romantic relationship, I’ve never had that. This is with him the closest thing probably you know. But I’ve been, like I said, in love tons of times but never had a relationship as far as you know– that lasted very long. Which is a fault of me I know– you know– I look back and think “Oh my God how did I do some of that stuff?” But you know we all do that and…

 

MP: Especially being young and–

 

FG: Oh yeah, you know you don’t think about the future you know, I mean– if I met a gay person, a young guy now– or you, you’re young, what are you, 21?

 

LM: I’m 22.

 

FG: 22, okay. But uh, I would tell him: put some money back every week. I don’t care if it’s $20 a week or something, put something back.

 

LM: Just me, not you guys.

 

ALL: [laughing]

 

FG: But, well I– my other thing I would say: take care of your teeth.

 

MP: Yes.

 

FG: Those are two things I’d say. You know, when you’re young and you go to the bar four or five nights a week, you’re borrowing money from work to have money to go to the bar– I mean that’s all you think about back then. That’s what we did you know, just having a good time you know. Like I told y’all I gave my diaries to the guy in Birmingham you know I had like four and a half years of– in the 80s I kept a diary for four and a half years and I went and read the whole thing– I hadn’t read it in years, but before I gave it– I knew he was getting it and I wanted to go back and reread it. And I thought “My God, we were going to the bar four or five times a week, staying out to one or two or three o’clock in the morning, going to work the next day, feeling like shit you know and doing it again the next night”. I mean it’s like– how did I survive?

 

MP: Do you have a like a favorite story of like going out with your friends?

 

FG: Oh my God, uh…

 

ALL: [laughs]

 

FG: I mean– let me think. We did stop a trucker coming down the interstate to Birmingham one night. We– James, my friend, he uh– how did we stop him?– somehow the trucker stopped, I don’t know if he flashed his light– anyway we ended up– the trucker stopped and James went and talked to him and got his number or something, I don’t know. I thought that was kind of bizarre, you know stopping a trucker on the interstate from– coming down from Birmingham you know.

 

MP: That’s great.

 

 

CM: So, have you ever been afraid to receive healthcare because of your identity?

 

FG: No.

 

CM: No? So–

 

FG: I had– I had one AIDS test my whole life and that was back in ‘89. And that was back– during the AIDS, the height of it you know and I had several friends that had come down with it and I finally went and had a test done. I was living in Mississippi at the time– Jackson– and I just remember coming back and I’m sitting in the waiting room, I’m about ready to pass out you know. And he told me I was negative and all that. Never had a test since, and I am the most– you wanna be talking about careless– my whole life, I’ve never used protection. Not one time that I remember, and I’ve done a lot of crazy stuff. And I– that I never came down with AIDS is a– my mother used to say “cause He’s looking after you”. But that’s you know– one of my things that I’m not proud of, but I did do uh– I never did– it’s lucky I’m still here, you know.

 

CM: So what changes did you see in the Tuscaloosa community during the AIDS crisis?

FG: You know here it was kind of– it was only starting out and especially a few years into it– that was something that happened in Atlanta or a big city. We didn’t really worry about it, you know, and most people I knew was kinda like that, you know. And then when they started getting it, you know people that– you know, I had a couple of friends died from it I was real close to, but uh we never did really obsess over it really to be honest with you. I don’t remember being too much you know– just like me not doing protection even after all the stuff that went on, you know. We just kinda lived for the day or whatever, we didn’t really…

 

MP: Why do you think that is? Do you think it was just like because you didn’t know better or do you think it was just–

 

FG: Well I knew– I mean I read everything, I keep up with everything. I knew what was going on. Maybe I just wasn’t worried about it and I just– I was just living for the day you know.

 

MP: Could you tell me about some of your friends that ended up passing from it, if it’s okay with you?

 

FG: Yeah, the first one was Mark– he’s the one I went to Atlanta– I told you I moved over there for– he’s the first one I knew that had AIDS, and he actually lived longer than most people. He got it in ‘83 and he died in 2009. So he lived a long time with it.

 

ALL: Wow.

 

FG: And I had other friends that found out and they were gone like within two years you know. So you never know how it’s gonna do. Uh, one of my other friends Jerry, he was uh– after James he was my closest friend– and I was with him when he found out he had it. I went to the doctor with him, was sitting with him– well actually he came out to the car– I sat in the car I think. He came out and he told me had it. Of course I remember him crying and all that you know. And he was married and had three kids, but he was gay, but he always wanted kids so he found a woman that knew he was gay and he married her and they had kids you know.

 

MP: Oh, that’s interesting.

 

FG: And we’re still friends– me and her are, she’s still alive you know. And uh, but yeah she knew he was gay when they married and uh. But then when he died it was kind of– it was weird because back then I was still self-obsessed with myself– I mean I loved him and cared about him, but I didn’t go look after him like I– looking back on it now– like I should have, you know. The last time I saw him he was really– you ever see those pictures or movies where people have AIDS?- he looked like that. And I remember- I just couldn’t– you know, it broke my heart, but I just couldn’t be around him. And I don’t– I think he died not long after that you know, he was going down then, you know. But his three kids I still see them now, you know. In fact his oldest son, he’s 36 now, he never did know his dad was gay, I don’t think.

 

MP: Do you think he knows now?

 

FG: He must, but– ‘cause he all the time used to ask me questions “What was my dad like back then?” and blah blah. And I would tell him you know– and I think I did get drunk one night and say something about it. Cause I can’t believe that his mother didn’t say anything about it but– and I think he does know, you know, but uh. They were all good kids you know and everything. Um, I don’t see them as much as I ought to I guess– I don't see anybody like I should, you know but they’re still– they’re doing well.

 

CM: So what community healthcare resources were available during the time of the AIDS crisis?

 

FG: To be honest I have no idea. I didn’t look for them, I didn’t really, you know–

 

MP: How did you get your test?

 

FG: Well I was in Jackson, Mississippi, I just went to a regular doctor.

 

MP: Yeah, okay.

 

FG: I just went and had a test done.

 

MP: What would you tell someone who wants to come out?

 

FG: Well now I would say “no problem!” Heck, you know, there’s no shame or any kind of– I’m sure there’s prejudice still– some– but I don’t think it’s like it was back thirty, forty years ago, you know. I just– I think it’s so normalized now, you know. I mean I do, you know.

 

MP: Um, what is your favorite thing about being gay?

 

[pause for the innuendo]

[laughter]

 

FG: Obviously, but uh… [laughs] I– well I think our friends are more fun, whatever, you know really we are, you know. We’re a fun group! That’s how we live, we live to have fun, that’s how it was back then. Now it’s different, now we’re– the ones I’ve got now, we tend to reminisce more when I talk to them. Well, we always end up talking about the past and all that stuff– what else are you gonna talk about I guess now, you know.

 

MP: What other like crazy stories do you have from going out with your friends?

 

FG: This is where you need those diaries [laughs] and that was just four and a half years there you know. Uh… well I did uh– somebody called me one day and said “Fred, I got someone I want you to meet”. I said “who?”-- this is back in the 80s– they said “there’s a guy that’s uh, he’s a trucker and he’s coming through town and he wants to m– he said he had a fantasy about wanting to have sex with a man dressed like a woman”. Well, I ended up meeting him at the K-Mart parking lot in his truck over there. I put on a wig, dress– I didn’t put makeup on, I said I’m not going all that route, but I put on a wig and I ended up meeting him.

 

[laughter]

 

FG: That’s just, you know, one of the things that came to mind. I remember that, we always laughed about that, but uh. God, it’s been so many– I can’t really think right now, you know.

 

MP: So I know we talked to you a little bit earlier about doing drag, but what were you doing during that time outside of drag?

 

FG: Well I worked– I’ve always worked at a flower shop, I’m a florist, I’ve done that all my life. And– work in there during the day you know, and going to the bars at night. That was basically our– or parties or just having fun. That was our life back then, you know. I mean it wasn’t every night you know. Reading back it almost seems like it you know, cause it was– you know– our lives revolved around the bar. And that’s where– everybody went there, it wasn’t just me, everybody went to the bar you know, Deja Vu and Michael’s, that’s just where everybody went, where the social life was.

 

MP: Yeah. What was your favorite memory from the bar?

 

FG: Uh…

 

MP: Or just one that sticks out to you.

 

FG: Well one just came to my mind, it’s not my favorite one, but my brother came– I got drunk one night and so– I was mad at somebody and I wonder where they was at– anyway I ended up going to Michael’s, I found out he was down there, I went– I drove down there– all I was wearing was a house robe and my house shoes, I was home– I just went straight to the bar to look for him. And my brother was looking for me for some reason, he came down there, came in there and found me and ended up driving me home you know. Uh, another time I remember I went to that black bar I was telling you about– I went down there and after the show was over I ended up– I was really drunk, back then I drove and drank– we all drove back then drinking. It’s a wonder I never had any prob– a wreck or something, but– we all drove and drank you know. And in backing up I ended up backing up into a car and it turned out to be– it was the owner’s brother who was the sheriff of Greene County. [laughs]

 

LM: Oh wow.

 

FG: Now don’t– I’m not proud of this moment either. I had– he came out getting on to me and I ended up calling him the n-word. I never use that, but back then I was drunk and I don’t know why I said it. And he came down to the shop later that week and got my insurance. And he was really nice and all that and I apologized and– that just came to mind too, but that show’s you some of the stupid stuff I’ve done in the past, you know.

MP: Alright, I think we’re all good. Unless you have anything else you want to share?

 

FG: I don’t know even where to start you know. I’m sure I’ve said too much stuff there–

 

MP: No–

 

FG: About that n-word, you know everybody said that– I– you know that was back in ‘84-5, you know something like that. And I’m not prejudiced, believe me or not, but– I did say it, I can’t deny that you know so– but uh, anyway. Well, do you wanna see some parts of the video?

 

MP: Yes, absolutely.

 

FG: How many people y’all done this with…

 

MP: So each group gets a different person–

 

FG: Did y’all do Ray Taylor?

 

MP: Yes they did.

 

FG: How was Ray’s experience compared to mine? ‘Cause Ray was more uptown compared to– I always thought, you know.

 

MP: Yeah, Ray said that– he was like “If you want to hear some more crazy stories go talk to Fred”.

 

FG: Alright [laughs] he knows me well. Y’all trying to get into touch with Tommy Megs?

 

MP: I’m not sure.

 

LM: Yeah I don’t recognize that name…

 

MP: I’d have to ask Isabella. That’s who would know.

 

FG: Tommy Megs was the owner of Michael’s.

 

MP: Oh, I wonder…

 

FG: His drag name was Magnolia.

 

MP: I know they talked to…  

 

FG: Isabella said she was trying to get into touch with him.