Interviewee: Holly Grof
Interviewers: Will Keller, Emma McGowin, Sophia Biernat
Date: November 9, 2023

This is an oral history interview with Holly Grof. It is being conducted on November 9, 2023 in a conference room above Fresh Foods Dining Hall at the University of Alabama in Tuscaloosa, Alabama. It concerns Holly’s experiences in religious, academic, and professional spaces as a queer person in the South and her involvement with the local roller derby team.

 

00:00
HG: My wife ran into them [Dr. John Giggie and Isabella Garrison], I think at Pride fest.
00:05
WK: Okay.
00:07
HG: But I didn't get to go that day. So, yeah.
00:10
WK: So essentially, a lot of the questions we're gonna ask, they can be a little bit personal. So if there's ever a time where you don't want to answer questions [that’s] perfectly fine, but they do fit a lot of the themes that we're learning in the [University of Alabama’s Southern Queer History] class. And a lot of queer history, as you probably know, is not very well documented. So this is our opportunity to slowly get back and progress. Because this will actually be used in the real world, not just a class and grade. So yeah, we'll get into it. I'm going to do the first half of the interview, and then we could probably stop and get you [Emma] situated, but I guess I’ll go down to [question] six. First off, we're just going to ask this question, right?
01:02
SB: Yeah, it’s the bio info.
01:04
WK: So the bio info. If you could just state your full name and place of birth…?
 
01:10
HG: Holly Grof, and I was born in Big Rapids, Michigan. It’s about an hour north of Grand Rapids.
 
01:17
WK: And occupation?
 
01:21
HG: I am the Dining Services Coordinator. I'm a registered dietitian.
 
01:22
WK: And chosen family details like siblings, parents…?
 
01:25
HG: One sister, who lives here in town and also works for the University of Alabama. And my parents who also live here in town now. My sister has two kids and is married to a native of Tuscaloosa who also works at the University of Alabama. And my wife and I have been together….okay, I'm not the anniversary person, she is. I think 20 [or] 21 years now since we just hit 20 this last summer. And then we've been legally married since 2016. She's a real estate agent here in Tuscaloosa, and also teaches adjunct at the university.
 
2:15
WK: So the first part of the questions [are] going to pertain to early life childhood, life back in Florida. So in Florida today, there's a lot of anti-LGBTQ legislation. To what extent does it reflect the attitudes you encountered growing up?
 
02:27
HG: I kind of moved around a lot growing up, actually. I was born in Michigan. I went to early elementary school in North Carolina and then finished out in Pensacola, Florida. So I moved around a little bit. So I kind of had a whole mixture of things in there probably. Honestly as far as like, specifically queer influence, like comfort in growing up, I was in the band and color guard in high school. And so as far as queer accepting environments, those were probably some of the more [accepting environments]–especially in my day, I'm 42 now. So I think probably like in the late 90s, when I was in high school in Florida, those were probably some of our more accepting environments. I also played soccer and softball, but I think, as far as like having some queer role models, and like individuals who were openly queer, that environment gave that to me a little bit more there.
 
03:48
WK: So you could sort of say that, you know, there's some some good opportunities and safe places in Florida. But you could acknowledge that there’s–
 
03:51
HG: Yeah, but definitely not some also. Yeah, for sure. And yeah. And I don't really talk to a ton of people from high school anymore, pretty much. And my parents moved up here so it's not like I go home to Florida anymore. Definitely, that political climate is scary. Kinda…as far as when we look at what's going on in you know, particular areas. I also play roller derby, with the league here in town. And then I coach the junior team, which I have absolutely loved. Our junior team was just founded a little over a year ago. And I actually tore my PCL last year was how I started working with the juniors while I was rehabbing, because I could be on skates but I couldn't be contact while I was rehabbing. And I was like, “Okay, well, do y’all need any help here?” And I started helping out with the juniors and kind of inadvertently roped myself into coaching them. So I’m one of the coaches for them now. So we've got open gender 10 to 17 in our junior group and very, very heavy queer influence. Pretty much anything along the spectrum of identification is represented in our junior team there. So sorry, [I’m] kind of going off topic of that question.

05:17
WK: No, you’re good. You’re perfect.
 
05:18
HG: When we were looking at [an event] in Fort Walton Beach, Florida this year, we definitely had some parents who were concerned about that and wanted to see what type of safety precautions [there were] and make sure that pronouns would be honored with announcers and that restroom usage wouldn't be an issue of, you know, using the restroom that each individual feels the most comfortable with there. And so there was definitely some back and forth and the questions of that. That's not a normal part of our contract that we'd normally sign with a team that we're heading to or team that's coming to us. There was definitely some additional discussion there, especially with our skaters that are trans. They were particularly concerned there.
 
06:12
WK: So this next one could be a little bit…or it is a personal question. But whenever it was, what was your coming out experience like?
 
06:18
HG: Sort of out in high school to some family, to some friends. [I] had my first same sex relationship in high school and went back in the closet when I came to college. So kind of went through that. [I] was married in a heterosexual relationship. And also, just terms were much more binary, I think, when I was growing up, than I find–I don't have kids. But, like, say, in working with the juniors on the team now, you know, and then working with a college student population, language is much less binary than it was. So, you know, it tended to be straight, gay, lesbian. Bi was sort of floating around in there. Poly wasn't a word that probably came into my vocabulary until much later. So…that was a…I usually just say lesbian now, honestly, because I'm married to a woman. And that's kind of like the assumption and the word that was most friendly to me for the longest time. It would probably be…pan and poly would probably be the most accurate description for me. So those were not words that existed. You know, pan. It was like, maybe bi was starting in there a little bit. So we didn't really have good terminology. So I think that affected some of my coming out because we just didn't have words to attach to things. So it was like, “Well, what are you?” It was this very like black and white definition. So I think that kind of affected me a little bit there. But yeah…of trying to like put labels on things, and sometimes that's hard.
 
08:20
WK: So yeah, that goes into the next question really well about your college years. So you say you kind of took a different path when you went to college versus when you were in high school about being out. So what kind of support systems and community did you experience as a student in college?
 
08:43
HG: Really, I was not out until later college. And so really didn't have a super strong queer influence or support group there…kind of structure until later on, and still was a much smaller network. Really [I] didn't have a great queer support network until much, much later in my life, I think. Honestly, the bar was probably the most influence. And Michael's was a wonderful, like, safe haven, as a younger college student. [It] was really probably the majority of my interaction with other queer individuals. Certainly, I was in the band here. So you know, some through the band, but I was not out when I was marching. And definitely not something that just felt comfortable saying to people, nearly as much. So my support network came much, much later in life probably.
 
10:00
WK: What is it like working at the University of Alabama as a member of the queer community, and how does that experience differ from the student experience?
 
10:12
HG: Honestly, now, I just like to try to see myself as a person. And I think I definitely would stress about things that would out me or saying things about my significant other or something like that. And I really just don't think about it a lot anymore, which is really nice, probably. Certainly occasionally get a look or  reaction or something like that. But really, thankfully, where I'm at right now, and definitely, like my closest department and things like that, certainly not anything there. Probably wouldn't be in a department that I didn't feel comfortable working in on a day to day basis.
 
As far as versus this student experience, I don't know if I can really say because I've been out of school now for 20 something years here. And so, you know, while I certainly interact with students on a daily basis, I don't know that I could really speak to their experiences as much. I think the university was a very different place when I came to school in ‘99. I think we were at like, 18-19 thousand students then so you know, the graph is insane, comparatively. We were still much…I think it was still majority in state at that point. So now we're, you know, majority out of state and probably a much more diverse student body. So I think today's student experience is probably, besides just the literal time difference and where we are, I think some of those things also potentially change the student experience.

12:01
WK: Much more inclusive.

12:03
HG: Yeah. And at least a wider diversity. Diversity of students for sure. And yeah, definitely some programs, it's nice to see a little bit more openly identified and student organizations and things like that. So I don’t think…I know that there was a… the name evolution of it, which you guys probably have documented much better.
 
12:34
SB: The GSU?
 
12:39
HG: Yes. My wife was in school when that first formed and I think went to like the first meeting of that maybe. And [it was] not something that I was really even aware of there.
 
12:50
EM: I did want to add in a question to this. My uncle and his current boyfriend–they've been dating for, like, 10 years now. But they had pretty much the same experience. Scott, that's his name. He went here, he was in a frat, he did all the Bama everything, got out of school, married his college sweetheart [who] was in the sorority, whatever. They had a kid, then they got divorced, and now he's with my uncle. Do you think that pressure from the university had anything to do with the way that you lived your life when you went here?
 
13:25
HG: I don’t know about directly from the university, but definitely I think there was…in my opinion, I think I would have been a much more marginalized outlier, smaller percentage of the population by…yeah, identifying anywhere on the queer spectrum. Well, that's not a term I would have used back then at all. It would have been, you know, “Are you straight? Or are you a lesbian?” That was pretty much the in-between there, that bi maybe exists, that pan didn’t, nope, those things didn't exist there. So definitely, I think it would have been…I think I would have felt much more marginalized and a much smaller percentage of the population than I would today. So I don't know if it was directly affected by the university, but I think I've come to both love and hate the word tradition. I mean, I like a lot of the traditions of the university as well. But sometimes, when that word is used to hold on to things that we shouldn't be holding on to anymore, it can also become a really nasty word to me. So I both love it and hate it all at the same time.
 
14:46
WK: So another quick thing we talk about in class is just the influence of religion. So this is another personal question. You don’t have to answer it if you don’t want to. What is your experience with religion, and specifically in the South because it has such a big stronghold?

15:04
HG: Yeah, no, that’s one thing I think I personally struggled with sometimes. I did not grow up with a strong religious influence in my household…went to Christian-based [institutions], roughly. My mom was raised Catholic, and my dad was not raised with a super strong religious influence there but definitely a Christian-based [religious influence]…[I] attended Presbyterian and Episcopalian churches off and on, and then Methodist [churches] growing up and did participate in some youth group activities myself in high school a little bit. That was more on my own, separate from my parents…[it was] definitely not an environment where any of that–where there were queer individuals that were out that I knew of in any of those institutions that I attended. And…now…something that I do not want to participate in [is] organized religion, essentially.

16:23
WK: So you were never part of an affirming church?

16:26
HG: No…And I’ve definitely been invited, but also–

16:31
WK: To affirming churches?

16:33
HG: Yes. Now. I definitely have been invited and definitely have attended some things and certainly will go support other individuals in their weddings in religious institutions and baptisms and other events that they want to [participate in]. Will definitely support friends and family in that, but not something that I want to participate in.

17:01
WK: So this’ll be my last question before I pass on to Emma, but this is more political mobilization. Do you have any experience with activism, whether it be queer or anything else?

17:15
HG: Definitely some of trying to participate and be visible. So, like in demonstration-type protests, opportunities and in that. So not hugely active, but say like the drag bill recently, so, going down to Montgomery for one of those protest days. Some things like that–that and just–pride fests throughout the state and some things like that that I try to make sure to participate in and be visible, that, you know, here…just a part of the population just like everybody else. So, I don’t think I’d consider myself a hugely active person. I’d probably–you know, goals in life at some point, honestly, but…try to be me where I can be. Thankfully most of those experiences have been…fairly good experiences, honestly. I mean, always get some hecklers, but there’s gonna be hecklers no matter what you’re doing, really doesn’t matter. Can’t say I’m hugely psyched to see the RNC debate that’s coming. That was, you know, officially confirmed this morning. I think I might just like steer clear of campus that day…and maybe town. Might be time to just take a vacation day that day. So not super excited to see that necessarily, but–

18:51
WK: That’s some of the old tradition that’s not too good.

18:54
HG: Yeah, yeah. Definitely…definitely in my opinion that’s…yeah. Supposedly both political parties were invited to host a debate. Which, I thought that was interesting, that were invited, like it wasn’t–I don’t know–

19:07
EM: I’m excited to be there–

HG: –that verbiage was–

EM: –in the back–

HG: –yeah, yeah.

EM: –just listening.

19:13
EM: Yeah, alright. So I’m gonna take over the questions now. This is more queer spaces in general, just kind of your general life. It doesn’t really fit under a category. So, what’s your experience with the queer community in Tuscaloosa and West Alabama in general, and have you seen it change over time?

19:32
HG: For me just that I found the queer community, basically and…it is nice to have some like individuals to be around more and have a supportive group. And really that kind of came through roller derby for me. Saw large queer-identifying populations, which actually has changed, kind of, on our teams. Definitely a large not queer-identifying [population] on part of the team, but just a very affirming space. That has been nice.

20:07
EM: That kind of goes right into the next question of how’d you get involved with roller derby?

20:12
HG: Just a friend of a friend who my mom worked with, someone who was roommates with one of the skaters. And that… I was one of those kids who hung out at the skating rink and was definitely…always participated in athletics and competitive things and…that was about it.

20:36
EM: Perfect. So, we’ve already kind of talked about this, but to what extent is Druid City Derby a welcoming space for queer individuals, and we’ve talked about that on the junior team, but on the adult team, regularly. And is it also a welcoming space for individuals of other marginalized communities?

20:58
HG: I think roller derby…as a whole you’ll probably find really varying experiences, if you look into it, and it depends on the individual team. We play under WIFDA–Women’s Flat Track Derby Association–is the international organization that we play under their rule set, and are members of for rankings, and, so, within the global WIFDA community there are definitely varying experiences of inclusivity in various leagues, really, I don’t like the lack of inclusivity on WIFDA’s gender policy which, I think I…I understand holding space for female-identifying athletes in sports that females have not always traditionally gotten in history and holding that place. However, the WIFDA policy right now for gender essentially excludes cis men, which–I don’t like any type of exclusion in it really. So it’s pretty much, it–the gender policy–I’d have to look it up for the exact language, but it’s something along the lines of you can skate with whatever if it’s the place that you identify the most strongly with, so there are trans male and trans female, nonbinary, and cis females that skate under WIFDA…and so…I really don’t love that. Junior Roller Derby Association has both a female and an open-gender division–honestly I’d like to just see it open-gender ’cause that’s easiest. Our team is open-gender and competes in the open-gender divi–well, will compete this year for the first time. They just were doing recreational last year, so they’ll have sanctioned play this year in the open division. So, I’m glad to see that. We’re hosting more open-gender scrimmages because we do have a few cis males that are skating with us now so we can’t offer competitive game opportunities to them, but we can offer some play opportunities in scrimmages and things. So, our first mixer where we invite people from all over to sign up and you just mash up teams and come together and divide up teams, type of thing. So, we had one in October and did it open-gender, and we’re seeing that a lot more throughout the state and a lot more throughout the Southeast now. Other areas of the country have some groups that play under different rule sets and they tend to be more open-gender.

And then as far as [being] accepting of other marginalized communities, I think…roller derby probably has a little bit of a ways to go on that. Definitely some discrimination against people of color and indigenous populations that occurs, [is] reported to occur within leagues and then also within officiating. You know, language is such a small thing, but, like I said, it can be important. So for example, in the officiating policies there are some things of identifying skaters and making sure to identify them by their uniform team color and their number as opposed to, you know, “a skater in a black uniform” as opposed to “a black skater” and there have definitely been some reported instances at high-level play of things like “Black skater” and referring to skin color as opposed to their jersey color in issuing penalties and things [like] hair coloring, numbers on jerseys, which…I also officiate so it’s a thing, that, like, yes you do need to make sure that we can see your number because it’s a part of officiating, but in how we handle things like that…and then, within our particular league would like to be an inclusive space and hope that we have a diverse group. We have several people of color skating with us and would like to see wider groups represented in that. Of course… people often tend to group with people that are like them, so, you know, sometimes that–until you have some–it’s hard to break through into certain communities sometimes. We have no Hispanic, at least I don’t believe we have any, that would have Hispanic origin on the team and we certainly have growing Hispanic population in the state of Alabama and here in Tuscaloosa so, you know, I think we…there’s always room to grow with bringing new people into spaces. And making sure in our league, we’ve tried to be mindful of pronoun usage, make sure that our forms are inclusive, that we ask for those things, you know, where people want to provide that. So that we make sure that we ask for pronouns, make sure to use gender-inclusive language in our forms, in our policies, and things like that as much as we can there. We rebranded, also. We started the team as the Dames in 2015, and we’ve rebranded to just Druid City Derby in 2020–in there, somewhere in there–so that we could be more gender-inclusive there and better reflect, even without cisgender males in there, but better reflect, space for nonbinary and trans skaters as well.

27:11
EM: Perfect…and we saw that Druid City Derby donated to The Bail Project in the past. What motivated that decision and how does it reflect Druid City Derby’s values?

27:21
HG: Really that was a league decision at that point with some [of the] political climate going on at that point some individuals on the team suggested that we look at how we could use our voice there, and then, also, what we could do as league members and where we wanted to put our money. And so that was, of a few things that were presented that was one that–the league just–it spoke to the members.

27:54
EM: Perfect. And how has being involved with the roller derby team impacted your life in general?

28:02
HG: It’s hugely impacted me. I wasn’t a–before I took this job, I was in a 100% traveling position, so that was tough, because I wasn’t home a lot. Like the first year I traveled, I was only home 85 day, so I really–and I was working–I loved the company that I was working for, but I was working for a small, contract food service company–small in comparison–we still had accounts in all 50 states, but we were very heavily based in the South and I covered five states. I had Alabama, Mississippi, Louisiana, Arkansas, and Texas, and I had some very conservative areas and was asked to not be sent back to accounts because I was queer and had some bosses, who, I think, probably had discussions with me as a female that they would not necessarily have had with male about like, “my curly hair looks unkempt”, type of things. So lots of things within that company–and actually I really liked that job in a lot of ways. And, yeah...but I’m glad that I could live it, be there, address it, talk about it now so that hopefully less people experience things like that. Conversely, I was sent to accounts because I was queer. So like, for example, some accounts in Austin, Texas. I was specifically the resource manager chosen to go to those and, really, they didn’t send the country conservative white male, which unfortunately that’s also discriminatory against him. There’s no reason that he should be excluded from that account because he has a really strong southern accent or that we make assumptions about him. That’s not fair to either of us to be put into that situation. So I mean, I also liked a lot of the things about that company. Honestly, when they sold to a larger global company, [that] was part of the reason that I left, because I felt like they weren't taking as good care of the employees. Like the tipping point was…employees always used to get a $25 gift card, like the week before Christmas, and, you know, it's $25, but that’s a large expense to the company. And for a…you know, the hourly staff of that company was largely making minimum wage to slightly above and that and $25 is a big deal, you know, to those individuals right before [Christmas]. And they always did small things like they got paid on Fridays for hourly employees, and they always paid on Wednesday before Thanksgiving so that they had funds for Thanksgiving. Like little things like that, that I thought were small things that you can do to take care of your employees.  

31:07
WK: A lot of places don't do that.

31:08
HG: Yeah, yeah, exactly. And they sold, and they stopped some of those practices. So I think, yeah…the Thanksgiving pay, and the not distributing the Christmas bonus type of thing that they had traditionally done. Those were kind of like big deciding factors. Also, this job became…this position was created that I’m in now. And so those were…so I was also applying for that position, partially just because I wanted to come back to Tuscaloosa. But…so it's funny that I disliked some of the things of maybe, like, the smaller company, but I also liked a lot of things of the smaller company and taking care of their employees that I thought…so I got a little bit of the flip side on that company. So let's see, I think the question you actually asked was how has it [roller derby] changed my life.  But I had a pretty significant change around the time I took this job. And I think maybe a year or so after I started this job was when I looked at roller derby because I really couldn’t have a lot of hobbies or things like that. I didn't have a lot of extracurricular time that I could do repeat activities for. I couldn't really build a community very easily when I was traveling that much. So I really just…that was kind of like the first time in my adult life that I really had that opportunity to do that. Since I was in…like, probably since back to college and being in the band or something like that. So that was a huge change for me that I had a community and a support group that wasn't just my wife and my family that I could look to so it was really…that was a wonderful experience as an adult to have that, and I hope that we take good care of our league members. Our membership committee is also our membership and care, because we want to make sure that we do support each other whether it's a move, a death in the family, an illness, you know, whatever those types of things are.
33:15
WK: Good community to have.

33:18
HG: And that we survived COVID that, unfortunately, a lot of leagues–but I think we look at anything of, you know, volunteering, civic organizations, sports teams, things like that, that struggle so much to come back. I mean, it was hard, we didn't have great engagement, sometimes, but it was nice that we tried to have some virtual things to at least maintain contact with each other. And like we realized at the beginning of COVID, that we didn't have…at that point, we were on Facebook as our platform for communication through like private groups and things to each other, and we realized we didn't have a group that everyone was in. We had like an officials’ group, and we had skaters’ group, and we had these segmented groups. And we also try not to post things that were like just discussion and fun stuff in our official channels. And so there is literally a group called “shit talk” that is just for shit talking when you just want somebody…and it's kind of cool that there's a group of like 50 people now, and that maintained after COVID. It's kind of nice that, like, if somebody's having a bad day, or somebody just needs a laugh, you like need that engagement, you can drop it in there. And it's wonderful that like, there's this no…sometimes you're like, “Oh my god is somebody gonna respond to them? I'm having like a crisis myself this day.” And then somebody else pops up and you're like, “Okay that's kind of cool that we're there to support each other and that there's this…” Yeah, somebody always chimes in there, whatever it is. So it's nice to have a group that does that. Yeah, for sure. And because when you're, you know, an amateur group, we're putting on anything and you have to do all of it yourself, you have to have that involvement. So it's…you need that within the group to make the group survive, but then the group gives back in that way too, I think.  

35:13
SB: I'd like to jump in just with a couple of questions I've been writing down as we go. So first, you said you've traveled a lot for work, and you moved around a lot when you were younger. Is there anything that you think kind of sets Southern queer life or community apart from the rest of the country?

35:33
HG: I’ve spent most of my adult life in the South. So probably, that's hard to say in that my…but yeah, I mean..I think that we definitely, I mean…We know that, in general, any trend comes to the south, you know, later than other areas. Our trends, our things develop on the west coast and in the, you know, northeast in urban areas, things like that. I lived in London for about six months in college. And so, definitely, it’s not as diverse of a population to start with, sometimes probably brings that in. And tradition. And religion. And so as to, I don't know…people always, you know…I think anyone in the South who identifies as queer at some point gets the question, “Well, why do you even live here when you face things like that?” But I'm just me, and I also like a lot of the things about the South. You know, I liked that small company that took care of their employees. I like some of the traditions in what I think of the non-negative ways of that…I like going to football games, I like this part of, you know…I like the beauty of our campus, and the tradition of upholding an aesthetic in that manner. You know, I wish that sometimes our holding up of aesthetics was not so homogenous in the people that we tend to present forward, but I like a lot of parts of it, so I don't, you know…This is this is where I…while I did travel, and while I was not born in the south, this is pretty much where I grew up, and I do like a lot of parts of the South. And I enjoy that, so I want this to be my home, and I just want to be me.  

37:36
SB: So that kind of goes into my next question, which is you said you really wanted to come back to Tuscaloosa. Why Tuscaloosa?

37:42
HG: I never actually moved from Tuscaloosa, so I still lived in Tuscaloosa–

37: 44
SB: Oh gotcha okay.

37:45
HG: –like we were still based here. So I wanted to come back and actually be able to see my wife occasionally, rather than just, you know, talk to her on the phone every night. It's really nice to have a support structure in person there, and so I was ready to stop traveling as much as I did. And my sister and I both came to college here. We both stayed in Tuscaloosa after college, essentially, and she married a native Tuscaloosa guy. And so my sister was here, my niece and nephew were here, and then my parents…we lost a house in Ivan in a hurricane, which was probably big. They did stay in Pensacola area for a little while after that, but also didn't have like the sentimental attachment to a house that my sister and I grew up in or spent time in or that. So my parents moved up here after my sister had kids. And my parents were also self employed, so they closed down that business when my dad was ready to stop working because he was an industrial painter. It was a very physical job, and so when he reached the age where it was time to stop that business, they were not at Medicare age yet. So at that point, they were looking for somewhere that would offer benefits, and a state institution is excellent for that. So my mom worked for the University of Alabama with all of her good accounting experience from her running the business for years until they were at Medicare age, and they could draw on their retirement with less tax penalties there. Yeah.   

39:33
SB: As you work at Alabama, obviously, it's a public institution, the public has kind of has access to speak to you, so how do you kind of like balance that with some of the potential like vitriol you might get for your identity, that kind of stuff?

39:49
HG: I'm just me at this point. Yeah, I remember the first day in this position though. It was really awesome that everyone was gathered in a conference room in the building that we were at, at that point, because Dining Services is a small department. At that point, there were only two other employees. Now, there's only three other employees that have–because the remainder of the Bama dining employees all work for Aramark. And there's my department…we work for the university, and we're the liaison between Bama Dining, which are employed by Aramark. And so we're a really small department, but we fall under enterprise operations. And so everybody that was in the building was gathered down in a conference room, which was really great to introduce everybody and things like that, but also very personal and everybody [was] around the table, and, “Hey, this is my spouse.” And, “My kids that are age this and that.” And it was like, “Okay, what am I going to do in this job?” And probably coming out of the last company that I came out of… that, you know, where I had definitely been asked to not come back to some small rural Mississippi accounts because my wife came into town, and they saw us out to dinner, and made assumptions about sexuality there. So I had that, of like, there is that potential…but I just kind of said, “To heck with it, you know. I am me, and it's past time to make sure that I am always me.” And so I just went ahead and outed myself with, “My wife and I have been together for da, da, da years…” at that point, so. But definitely there were sweaty palms at that moment there of deciding. And I guess…I think there's…there is always that situation of…but I don't get those sweaty palms as much anymore, thankfully. For the most part, just be me.  

41:51
SB: Awesome. Okay, so my last question is, you've talked a lot about working with the youth derby team. How has working with young people changed your perspective, like, in general?

42:07
HG: Probably that…I'm so proud of them. That they, you know, just proclaim themselves often, and I hope it's…it is a very safe space. So I think some of them struggle with that in school situations, and with bullying and other things. You know, there are skaters on the team who drive to Magic City Acceptance Academy versus public schools that they were in in Tuscaloosa because they were not comfortable in their school. And, you know, students, that…their pronouns and names are not honored in school. That makes me sad and freaks me out, and that's where, if we want to go back to activism, where I will always be a loud voice, you know, that I can be in there. So I hate that they experienced that, but also, I am so proud of them that the vast majority just come in from like, recruitment nights that we have the very first day. You know, we ask pronouns. We'll have stickers laid out for their helmets, so that they can [share their pronouns], and a lot of them will just give you way more information on where they identify on that queer spectrum. And I really like that–

43:32
WK: That’s a good thing, that it's so inclusive. They feel that comfortable.

43:35
HG: Yes, yes. I'm very happy that they hopefully have a space that they feel very comfortable in. So yeah, that…and, again, less of binary thinking. And also that they are, you know, young people and figuring out their own identities. So, you know, as they figure things out, and they maybe change what name they ask for, or what pronoun they ask for, or what…then, you know…or how they identify or they want to tell me about a relationship or they want to whatever, that's…it's wonderful that they are able to do that. I hope more can grow up like that.  

44:19
EM: Okay, and this final question is just kind of a catch all. What kind of legacy do you hope to leave on pretty much anything you're involved in–derby, UA, Tuscaloosa, the community here in general?

44:32
HG: That we can create spaces for everyone to be themselves is wonderful. And, you know, while I don’t participate in organized religion, still some of our basis of golden rules…let's just treat each other the way we want to be treated.

44:53
SB: Awesome. Thank you so much.

44:55
WK: Yeah, thank you so much.

44:56
HG: Absolutely.