Julie Brand, originally from Cullman, Alabama, has lived in Tuscaloosa for nearly 30 years, since she began as a freshman at the University of Alabama where she was a member of the Million Dollar Band. Now she works as a realtor, shares her life with her wife, Holly, whom she married in 2016, teaches Human Environmental Sciences at the University, and referees for the Druid City roller derby. Her advice for the queer youth of today is, “Don’t be scared to experience your own personal joy.”

Interviewee: Julie Brand
Interviewers: Patrick Bugaj, Jillian Vargas-Wise, Gracey Woodson
Date: November 11, 2023

This is an oral history interview with Julie Brand. It is being conducted on November 11, 2023,
at Angelo Bruno Library on the University of Alabama campus and concerns her recollections
and experiences as a queer student at the University of Alabama during the 1990s. The
interviewers are Patrick Bugaj, Jillian Vargas-Wise, and Gracey Woodson.

JB: Only not I like hot sauce, but not eh no.
GW: I mean, I can't relate. I eat everything with every seasoning and all of the hot sauce. I truly
at this point like it is a miracle my GI tract is still intact.
JB: I still eat like about a 17-year-old boy. Basically, Totinos, pizzas, and whatever. I'll have the
fried chicken and then I'll have like – you know, she hates bologna. I'm like, sure give me
bologna. Give me whatever.
JVW: Bologna and mustard, a fried bologna sandwich with mustard.
GW: We'll have to try a bologna sandwich because everyone's like, Oh, you're my one of my
friends from home goes to Arkansas he’s like you ever had somebody from South make you a
bologna sandwich yet? I'm like, no, he's like, You got a let em’.
JB: I went somewhere this week for a brunch thing or whatever anyway, and they're like, oh, try
that and I was like, okay, what is this ham? That's smoked baloney. It was a chunk of Bologna
they had smoked I was like okay, I didn't see that coming but it was really good. I thought it was
ham.
GW: A smoked bologna.
JVW: It exists outside of sliced Zeigler form?
GW: Yeah. Like [giant] I don't know where they bought a giant bologna I mean, I've seen it
where you can cut it but I don’t know. Like at the grocery stores. I don't know.
JVW: I’ve never known a bologna loaf.
JB: I’ve seen Hispanic places too. If you go to the Tienda sometimes they'll have bologna
chunks that you can buy.
JVW: This is insane.
GW: Alright, we should probably do the interview.
GW: Oh my gosh. Okay, wait, is it recording yet?
PB: Yeah. Oh, yeah. It was recording for like a minute. I was like [inaudible]
GW: Love.
[overlapping chatter]
GW: I mean, we should probably mark it at some point. Whatever.
JVW: What should I say? Minute one bologna?
GW: Yeah, sure. That’s a great way [overlapping chatter]
JB: It is supposed to be about the South. So, I mean.
GW: This is correct.
JVW: Do one of you guys have your phone backup recording?
GW: Thanks for the reminder. Now, I do.
JB: I love that podcast microphone. Is this y'all’s stuff? Or did you get it from the university?
GW: NO.
PB: Oh, from the library. Yeah, we were [inaudible].
JB: I teach an HES 100 class. And so I was like can get all this stuff like you don't have to
[inaudible].
GW:
Teach HES? That's cool.
JVW: What is it? What did you say, HES?
JB: 100. It's a human environmental science.
JVW: Oh, cool.
JB: That was one of my minors. And it's that freshman intro class are y’all a master's or
undergrad?
All interviewers in unison: Undergrad.
JB: Okay.
GW: But I'm in – I've taken many a class in HES the building.
JB: Yeah, so that was my one of my minors.
GW: I work now with Dr. Koontz—
JB: I know the name.
GW: In the fashion archive is where I spend most of my days.
JB: Okay.
GW: So.
JVW: nice.
GW: Yeah, it’s fun.
JVW: What was your what were your other minors? And your major?
JB: My major was business.
JB: And back then you just got a concentration in business administration. But my concentration
was management and I have a minor in economics and a minor in Consumer Science
management from HES, and then my Masters is marketing analysis.
JW: Okay, very cool.
JB: And they were here.
GW: Everything was here.?
JB: Yeah. People go to school for 10 years, most are called doctor just took me that long to get
my bachelor's and my master's.
GW: It’s me. Don’t worry about that.
JB: Double victory laps.
JVW: I’m twenty-six in my undergrad and I'm a senior so like and I know Gracey is—
GW: I’m 23 in my undergrad —
JVW: So like we can both totally relate to it taking time.
JB: That's what we were walking in. I was like, Oh 94’ That was on the front building. I was like,
Oh, that seems like yesterday. No, no, Julie, that was the year you started college.
GW: That was almost 30 years ago. So sorry to say that.
JB: No, I know. I was actually just thinking about that. I was like, Holly and I've been together
forever. I'm like, This year will be my 30th high school reunion. Let's see, hmm, do I take her
we'll see. We'll see.
JB: But anyway,
JB: I was thinking that will be interesting to walk into. And I grew up in a very small little town.
GW: Ah, yeah, so speaking of your growing up, do you want to give us just a 30-second
biography like name, where/ when were you born, etc, etc?
JB: My name is Julie Brand. I was born and raised in Cullman, Alabama. I was born July 1,
1976. Supposed to be a bicentennial baby but whatever. got here a few days early.
Small town, North Alabama. People ask where it is, if you know where Birmingham is, you know
where Huntsville is, it’s right in the middle on 65.
GW: I mean, sounds good. I mean, with growing up in north Alabama in Cullman, so you said
Cullman's like a smaller town.
JB: It's a small town. I grew up in the city and my wife [inaudible]
JB: So, Cullman city, there's the city school and then there's seven county schools. And my
mom taught at one of the county schools and grew up in a smaller, more rural county school
called Holly Pond. But the city school my most of our classes were about 200 for the whole
grade.
PB: Oh. wow.
JB: So like, and I graduated with about, our class was a little bit shy. So we were only
graduating I think, 130. But we're roughly about 161/ 170. And so that was for the entire [senior
class]. And they've grown a lot since then. But um, very non-racially diverse.
JB: The only black kids that went to my school were from the orphanage. I had one guy –
JB: that had been with us, from middle school all the way through high school, his name was
Benard that graduated with us. But normally, people kind of switched in and out because they'd
move to different orphanages or get picked up by different foster families or something like that.
But I mean, it was, you know, 99/98%. White. So it's a little more racially diverse now. I mean,
just as life is.
GW: yeah.
JB: The county schools were a little more, there are a few pockets, like Hanceville was kind of
known to be more of a black school versus Holly Pond, which had to kind of mixture because it
was more rural, had some Hispanic, because of sharecropping, and farmers and chicken
houses and stuff like that. So–
GW: yeah.
JB: yeah.
GW: I mean, it makes sense. When you were growing up, just kind of getting into like, the early
parts of life, did you kind of have a moment where you understood to yourself that I was, maybe
I'm different, or maybe I'm gay, etc?
JB: You know, honestly, I didn't really– not so much.
JB: I came out in college.
JB: But you know, kind of looking back on things. I think it was probably that small town –
JB: I don't want to say I led a sheltered lifestyle. I lived, I sort of lived not quite a hugely
privileged lifestyle. You know what I am saying? Like, doctors, lawyers, kids, but my mom was a
teacher. She was educated. My dad was a contractor, he owned a business. So like, we grew
up in a very family unit. I am the youngest, my brother's eight and a half years older than me, so
my mom says she had two only children. So, you know, it wasn't if I went to college, or just
where –
JB: and it was always gonna be Alabama, to be honest.
JB: But looking back on it, I was in band, and I was in drama, and I played tennis, and I was in
jazz band and had a job. And so like, I guess I just stayed kind of so busy with all my friends
and things and I just didn't really think about –I don't know. Anyway, I guess I did kind of the
socially accepted norms. Like I can remember kissing my first guy in middle school, or whatever.
And then, okay, whatever. And then, now being friends with someone and –
JB: First, quote, date, I guess, like meeting somebody. And I was very private, I guess. So like I
didn't always —
JB: seems weird. These kids, these kids these days are very open and very, like, interactive with
their parents. That's not the way I was– It was just kind of, we did our thing. Not that I didn’t feel
my mom didn’t love me – she took care of me, and I had every need met, but it was just kind of,
she didn't know where it was every moment every day.
GW: yeah.
JB: I mean, this was pre-cellphones. This was pre-internet–
GW: The expectation is that you would come home?
JB: Yeah, yeah, it was kind of like, you see that meme. Your grandmom didn't know where I was
from 89 to 94? It’s basically that way. I got up in the morning, she was gone. She would wake
me up, she went to school, and I made my way to school somehow, like your ride or, or driving
or whatever. And then I would be home at some point in time that night after all of these
activities, and repeat the next day. So I just kind of took care of myself.
JB: Not that she like I said, didn't provide but it was just kind of one of those –didn't really think
about it. And so, later on –
JB: when I did start figuring out things –
JB: I was like, you know, a lot of light bulbs going off like oh, yeah, so Noelle, well, yeah, that
was a crush. So yeah, that was crush this one? Yeah, yeah. Okay. Anyway, that makes so much
more sense. It's kind of
JB: [inaudible] But, I was dating two different guys when I left for college, but whenever it got to
the point of – really, really serious. I was always like, Oh, hold on second. Looking back yet
again– light bulb. Makes sense.
JB: But you know, I mean, I did go to the prom with guys and – it just wasn't – and then later on,
you know, I remember, I guess when I did come out, talking to my friends and they're like, Oh,
well, you know, so and so and so and so and they were gay in High-School and I was like, I
completely missed all of that. Like it wouldn't even – I guess I don't know. I just was out of those
rumors or out of whatever I had no idea.
GW: Then what was– in college, Do you kind of know what was your sparking moment of
getting the ball rolling?
JB: So, when I came to school, like I said, I was in the band. So I marched at Alabama. And I
was I was pretty homesick. I mean –
JB: I'm a realtor. And so, this is what I do for my life right now is I buy and sell houses. My mom
lives in the house that my brother, who's eight and a half years older than me was brought home
to the hospital to so the idea of moving and living in different places –So, I came to college, and
it was like, Cullman didn't have malls, it didn't have whatever. So it was a bigger world. And so I
was a bit homesick, but I was in the band at Alabama. So I was in the marching band, and I
had met someone here. We were both freshman trumpet players together. And she was from
here, she went to County High.
JB: And we became really good friends. And it’s just kind of like, okay, you're doing all those
little college existing things, blah, blah, blah.
JB: And I remember, after one of the first home football games, you know, we'd gone out to
some places and blah, blah, whatnot. And then, I was supposed to be going to this party with
one of the guys that was on the thing and –
JB: yeah, proceeded to get me pretty drunk.
JB: And my mom won’t ever hear this – first time I'd ever, smoked at the time. So I walked down
to the woods and I'm like, oh, okay, I grabbed a cigarette and was like that was not a cigarette.
GW: Oh, okay. That's tough!
JB: It’s like okay, never mind. So anyway, proceed to get pretty tore up. And she's like, I can't
get you in your dorm. Because, you know, that's what she said. Because you know, back then
you went through not really a gate, but there were someone sitting up front. And so she took me
home with her, and she still lived at home and her parents were partiers and really didn't care
anything of whatever. And so, was going to take care of me and – so I remember meeting her
parents kind of when her dad comes stumbling in carrying her mom in and we went to bed and
at some point in time, she kissed me or I kissed her. And I was like, oh,
wait a second. I'm maybe drunk. Maybe stoned. But that's what that's what's the feel like? Okay,
never mind, and then you know, the typical like, No, this isn't. This isn't right. This isn't whatever.
JB: Back off – kind of like, I was just drunk, whatever blah blah blah. Kind of run, and end up
going on a date or so with the guy and getting into a fight with her when these things then it just
was in my mind, you know, that feeling or whatever that and I was just like, and eventually it was
just like, we were–so we were friends. But not only were we friends like I told you guys we were
we marched together. So like, we were trumpet players. We were freshmen together, we played
the same part. We actually were assigned to share a stand. We actually marched next to each
other. Like, that was our spot. So it was like no really getting away from her.
JB: And she was not really out because she's bi.
JB: But, I remember going, so it’s like, okay, we were supposed to be meeting some people at a
club downtown. And it was like we were quote running late and was walking. I was like, hold on–
JB: I need to test something or check something and I kissed her again. I was like, okay, yep.
Yeah, it wasn't just that one. And I was like, gosh, and then she was like, you know, stormed off,
I guess or whatever. And then we dated for about a year.
GW: Okay.
JB: I guess you would say.
GW: Well, there you go. I mean, I feel like in our class, we've discussed so much the idea of
your first gay relationship and how much that teaches you about yourself? Like, do you feel like
you learned anything in the course of that relationship? Or that first kind of?
JB: Yeah, definitely.
JB: Not necessarily was it – I'm not gonna say it was the best or healthiest relationship because
yet again, I still had a lot of denial.
JB: My roommate here was also someone I went to high school with.
JB: So I was very much not out, I was very much not out very soon. I did not do very well my
freshman year because let's just say I didn’t spend very many nights in the dorm room and for
that point – so you know it – and I'm still friends with my old roommate and definitely do [they]
know everything like that but now.
JB: Yeah, that first relationship wasn't great. But, I mean, it taught me a lot.
JB: And then, I mean, I'm still in contact with her. She lives not far from here and we still run into
each other at Alumni Band Games and stuff like that.
JB: She's married with kids now to a man, but like, still very fluid and her kids go to Magic City
Acceptance [Center] and stuff like that, or two of them do? I think two.
JB: Anyway, so yeah, I'm not gonna say it was the best or healthiest relationship. But I mean, it
definitely – There was a lot of growing up there.
JVW: I have maybe a big question.
JB: Sure.
JVW: So at some point, you mentioned a feeling that this isn't right. And a theme that I think our
class is kind of identifying is that maybe there is some kind of fear appendaged unto being a
queer person in the South, that isn't the same thing as being a queer person in the North. And I
was just wondering if, you would like to speak about your idea that this isn't right like was that
from a religious place? Or, you know?
JB: I think it was more of a –I wasn't raised really religious. I mean, I was raised in and around
the church and definitely grandmother was pretty religious. My granddad my Pawpaw was a
deacon, but it was more along the lines of my mom– I loved my mom very much like I said
she's–
JB: Yeah, like, everything, but, a feeling of disappointment, like I was going to disappoint her. It
still was very much a taboo, especially back in those days. Like I said, I came out, this was all
happening around 94’. So, you still had to really remember—, sneaking. I can remember
sneaking into the gay bar, walking in with people and people throwing beer bottles, and– or you
go to the bar, and there'll be glass all over it. People getting jumped in the parking lot, a friend of
mine getting picked up for underage drinking, and you know, she's in the back of the thing. And
they're like, Oh, where did you? Where did you? Where did they pick you up? And they're like,
“Michaels” and like all the girls in there, you know, whatever. So it's just that very much taboo of,
{Oh, they're gay} you know? And, it was just, perceived not to be a good thing, or it was
perceived to be bad.
JB: And so yeah, some of that, am I going to disappoint my mom? Am I disappointing myself? I
hate to say it but like, what's what's wrong with me? What am I gonna say–, what's Why is it?
Why am I not normal? Or whatever. Because I mean, I don't know. It just was – and scared. I
mean, because like I said, it's still I mean, I definitely. I'm way, obviously more out now. But, I
mean, I definitely had many jobs in the past that I was never out.
JB:
I def [definitely]– I probably wouldn't have been hired for them or you just you're fearful.
Because I mean, literally, it was non-protected. I mean, it's still in some ways, but it's, yeah. So, I
guess it was more along that. And it was, I was probably more of a personal shame and more of
a disappointment, shame, because, never, my mom is just a very —, brought up in a very strong
matriarchal family of —my grandma has been dead for I don’t know how many years. And my
mom still prays for my grandmom's approval, you know.
GW: I understand how that is, my dad is the same way, my paternal grandmother was like, the
matriarch of my dad's family. And when she passed away – really, a lot of relationships fell
apart, because she was the thing that held it all together. So I understand, the idea of where
you're coming from.
JB: Yeah, it's sort of the same on my dad's side, because my Mawmaw, I'm very much like my
Mawmaw was, but my dad got killed when I was 14. So as a freshman in high school, I still
somewhat talk to some of the Brand side, but not that much.
JB: They're way more of a religious side, etc. And they probably– their pseudo accepting, but
not as much probably so. My mom's side–very accepting.
JB: Even, almost surprisingly, to a point of, you kind of kid when you get married, when we got
married– Yeah, most time they say, when you invite people like 60% of the people you invite are
gonna come. We were at, 95%
GW: Wow.
JB: Because it was very small, but, still was like, every single person on—, if, you know, like, the
husband or the wife came or the kids or whatever, so it was like every single–
PB: So you said that you came out in college, correct? Um, I was wondering, when you came
out, what did that look like? If you don't mind sharing that.
JB: It really was more of I guess dancing around that relationship with Jennifer and getting in a
relationship and then basically, close friends knowing what was going on.
JB: I won't, I don't know that I had really all that big of a quote coming out story. I didn't really–
JB: I never, It wasn't that, like you see, like writing a letter to your mom or like coming out to your
parents like, Hey, I'm going to go tell my mom that I'm gay or blah, blah or whatnot.
JB: Like I said, I didn't do real well my freshman year, and then there was just a lot. And I guess
emotionally, I never did talk to my mom much about certain emotions, you know – like just
emotionally about stuff.
JB: And I just remember one time, we're sitting at the kitchen table. She's like, [inaudible] and
she was like, What is you and Jennifer's relationship? And I was just like, and I don't even think I
answered that question. Like, I think I just was like –
JB: And then. So I think it just kind of became a thing. And then, I didn't realize that my
grandmom really knew I mean– I dated someone before Holly for seven years. And then Holly
did meet my grandmom before [she passed] she was around briefly when we first got together.
JB: And grandmom knew because she says – grandmom knew. Like she was near the end, and
she just she said, now take care of my Julie, or something like that, you know, so –never
formally talked to my grandmom about it. But I guess one of the things that was almost scary to
me of coming out to my mom, was when we did get – before we got married when Holly and I
have been together for a while, but when I gave her a ring, and I had to go meet mom, at the
restaurant and be like, hey – and you know, she sees a ring. And I told her, you know, her
parents, whatever sees it. I was worried about my mom's reaction to that. But Mom was
extremely happy. And you know, supportive. So, but yeah, we've only been married for–I have
to look at my phone.
JB: We got married, in 2016.
JB: Even though, we've been together for 20 years.
JB: We were not one of those folks that did the like 2016, Oh, this is our commitment ceremony,
this is when it's legal here, and this was the one that was finally legal, you know what I’m
saying?
Anyway, so that was probably about 2014 I guess probably got quote engaged.
GW: And then a point of clarification, your grandmom is your mother's mother?
JB: Yeah, my grandma was my mother's mother.
GW: Okay, thank you.
JB: She, age-wise, my mom is almost 80. So my grandma would have been born in the teens
and grew up in the depression. So, very, you know–older and grew up in a very small rural
[town]–but I mean, still, honestly, they were very privileged for them too, because and I mean
she talks about, like when she got married, and literally, she got a cow for her wedding or
whatever. But, at least the family had enough money to give her a cow. You know, I'm saying
and she grew up without running water. And she remembers talking about you know, when she
was little – “Oh, would it be great to build your house over streams so you didn’t have to go to
the well,” or whatever, stuff like that. So, it was just a totally [different time] you know. I
remember that I remember these conversations with my grandmom.
PB: Um, so I know, you mentioned you were in the band. I'm, I was also in the band for three
years. I played saxophone.
JB: Okay.
23:26
PB: Um, so I know, you mentioned you were in the band. I'm, I was also in the band for three
years. I played saxophone.
JB: Okay.
PB: And I was wondering, um, your relationship with band and theater and tennis in college, and
over the course of you like coming into yourself? What was that like for like your friends? Like,
were there any people who didn't really support you? Or, like, those groups themselves?
JB: Yeah, I don't think so. I think that those groups are all very supportive. I don't know if that's
why, one gravitates to those groups, obviously. Also, when I did join the band, the group of
friends that I hung around with were a very open and accepting group. Had a friend who was a
baritone section leader, and he, he was probably one of the first gay guys I really knew. And he
was a year or so ahead of us. And then there was this saxophone player…and actually, I dated
this girl Donna, who was also in the band after Jennifer, and her cousin was the tenor sax
section leader and she was a tenor sax player…Yeah, apparently I only date band girls.
laughter)
JB: Not really but basically. Holly was actually in the color guard, but we didn’t march at the
same time. She's a bit younger than me, a little bit. So we didn't quite crossover, but you know,
there is probably where I met people who were more like me. And Lee was involved in what
used to be called the GLBA. Then it was like GLBTA and more and more letters. And I think it's
probably what maybe is Spectrum now? I'm not sure. Is Spectrum still around?
GW: Yes.
JB: Okay. I think it was the Gay Lesbian Association. So it was like when I came to school, I
think it was the Gay Lesbian Association. And then it was like the Gay Lesbian Bisexual
Association, and then it was the you know, GLBTA.
GW: Just keep adding more letters.
JB: Then I was gone from campus for a while, and it was something else.
GW: So then you came back and it was Spectrum?
JB: I think that's right. I don't know. But yeah, definitely found more open people there. I mean,
there were people probably who weren't. But I think those environments always were a little
more carefree and open, as opposed to the business school.
GW: I was going to actually ask a little bit about campus in the 90s. I mean, I feel like now, what
campus is, what it looks like, is completely different compared to even if you look back five years
ago,
JB: Oh, yeah. Well, yeah. And I mean it has grown and expanded and more and more services.
It's gotten. I sound so old saying this, it's just gotten busier and busier. Back then, you could
drive around the quad, and people dropped you off to class, etc, etc. As a matter of fact, you
know, now you can’t really live on campus, well the freshmen can live on campus, but back then
they were doing, it was called “two plus two.” If you lived on campus for two years, you got two
years free.
GW JW and PB: *noises of intrigue*
JB: Like, when I started school, I think the enrollment was around 20 to 23,000. And now we're
what, like, almost 40? I think we were at 39 this year.
GW: I heard 50 I think.
JB: For just undergrad?
W: I actually looked up this statistic last night. We're at 39 undergraduates for 2023 in the fall.
GW: Oh, then you throw in the master’s and PhD and we hit 50.
JB: Yeah. So we were at 22, 23. Something like that when I was a freshman. said, Like, where
Lakeside [Dining Hall] and all that was those are fields and trees. There were rappelling towers,
like where Mars Springs is there was a firing range for military skills
GW: On campus?
JB: On, yeah.
JW: Yeah, I know campus used to be so military-centric, like, but I'm talking like 1870s and stuff.
JB: Where Wood’s Quad is, it was all military barracks. So it wasn't burned during Civil War,
because it was actually residency.
GW: I mean, with such like, heavy conservative roots and military roots. Did you ever…did you
ever feel kind of defeated? Or felt the urge to move somewhere else, or to go somewhere else
to feel more accepted? Did you ever have that urge?
JB: No, probably because I dislike change.
GW: Valid.
JB: Like those kids who came to college and never left. And it's kind of true. I came to college,
and you know, just became ingrained in Tuscaloosa. And we've talked about moving before, and
my colleague was going to offer a job in Dallas. But like I never…like this was a big city for me.
And I'm not gonna say I wouldn’t, but I don't know. In some ways, we've talked about that, too.
And we've talked about, you know, move to somewhere that is accepting, or stay in a place and
make it become more accepting. And I don't know if I've done things to make it more accepting.
I want to hope and say that I have in certain ways. That people who thought that they didn't
know anyone who was gay or whatever, that “all gay people were bad.” And like, you know, I
was friends with them and kind of felt otherwise. Because I definitely have met those folks with
those prejudices and then I say to them, “You do realize I'm gay” and they’ll like “What?”, you
know? But, anyway…and I'm not gonna say I've never been scared. I will say though, like
growing up [in Alabama], it's totally different now. Because I remember…are you guys familiar
with Pensacola? And like Memorial Day?
GW: Oh, yeah.
JB: I remember going to Pensacola for Memorial Day once or twice when I was younger. We're
probably talking ‘97, or ‘98, somewhere in there. I’m remembering going down there and it being
just so open and so free, because it was like, everybody down there was gay. You didn’t have to
worry that you're holding your girlfriend's hand at the restaurant or waiting in line, or you're
walking on the beach and everybody's gay. I just remember being like, wow, and then literally
coming back to town and be like, “and switch off”, you know what I'm saying? You can’t act that
way. Or you're scared to, you are filled with doubt, you know, in a negative way.
GW: Of course.
JB: And I've never been a flashy, flamboyant – and I don't mean that to be against anyone who
is – but my hair has never been colored, never been permed, never been whatever, I'm not that
person that's like, Hey, look at me. And so I like to kind of blend in the mainstream of it.
GW: Do you have a particular reason why you prefer to be a little bit more in the crowd versus
out in front of it?
31:23
JB: Not really and I don't always have to be, but I just kind of – because I don't mind being a
leader. If that makes sense? And I don't mind directing certain things, but I just don't, I don't
know, I guess, I guess more of, visual appearance of, drawing attention that way. It's just never
been. I don't know, I guess that's something I don't know if it's fearful. It's just something that's
not in my comfort zone–
GW: Okay.
JB: as far as that is. So, things highly drew attention to yourself. It's probably why I liked theater
and band, and not something – my wife was in colorguard, which I mean, I guess there's a
whole group of people that are doing that, but, I never would have wanted to be the soloist or
the person in the very front of the lead in that way. I don't mind like, “hey, we got a task we're
doing let's go,” that kind of leader or being a manager, but it's just kind of the I'm putting on a
show for you. I don't know, it just never was me. And my comfort zone. I love it. I love to watch it
or whatever. But, it just, I don't know.
32:30
JB: I like to be in the background of it, I guess. Or the supporter.
GW: It's like the symphony of it all being able to take all these pieces and put them together. JB:
Could I be the conductor? Probably. But would I want to be the featured soloist? Probably not.
PB: Talking about visibility, do you and your wife go to events like Pride?
JB: We have. It's not, not go because of reason, right? Um, I went to Pride this year for a little
bit. It's basically normally been a timing factor of us being busy for stuff. But yeah, we have and I
think that and like I said, I'm a realtor, and even a few years ago, I sponsored a booth and things
like that.
33:19
JB: I'm always one of our – so she’s on the roller derby team. So, we normally do at least two
pride skates. We do one in June and then one for Pride Week. And, you know, obviously, we're
always at those events and things like that. But it's not an uncomfortableness of being in those
events.
JB: I will say it is something I did for the first time and I was not necessarily excited about it.
I was just I don't know, I guess I didn't realize I was nervous about it until later. But one of the
protests this year in Montgomery, over trans legislation we went to and that was probably the
first time I've done something like that. And I was– it kind of brought back a little bit of
uncomfortableness of– I don't know, animosities. Because honestly, things are so different now.
Not saying that you guys have it easy at all. Not saying any of that. But, just the whole, almost
acceptance– anyway, it's just–it's interesting, because we talked about, with roller derby, we
have the adult group, but we just started juniors group – a junior team a year ago, and
[inaudible] memberships. I think there’s 30 or 40 kids on the junior team. I would guess that
we're at 95% identifying in some way that is queer.
GW: Wow.
JB: 90 To 95% Probably like they all are.
JB: Also that word, like for me when I was –queer was not queer was not a good word. You
might have just said the N-word to somebody or called them whatever, it was not a–
GW: It was a slur.
JB: Yeah, it was like, what? You know, that was definitely derogatory.
GW: And now it's been really taken–
JB: Yeah, reclaimed.
GW: I mean in the differences between queer youth now versus you know the people who were
maybe on the fringes is way that they would describe themselves in the 90s or the early 2000s.
What kind of emotions come up for you when you get to look at the kids in the junior roller derby
League and you get to see 95% of these kids are identifying in some way as–
JB: Yeah.
GW: Queer. What does that bring up for you?
JB: I mean, It makes me happy, it makes me feel good for them. I hope that –if I say, I hope that
it's a good thing for them, I hope that I do. I do have that hope of okay, be true to yourself, don't
just do the cool thing. Like, you know, don't just fall to the social norm of like, is it because all
your other friends are or whatever, but also, the fact of matter that they maybe wouldn't have to
go through the same struggles at the same times.
JB: You know, I can't imagine–it's some of those difficult conversations, and even parents are
becoming more accepting of it, they're just like, “yeah, you know,” you know? I was talking to
one of the parents, who has three kids on it, and her daughter identifies and the two sons are
straight. And we were talking and it was like, there was a bunch of flags. It was one of the pride
events, and she was asking me, I'm like, I'm gonna be honest. I'm an old gay and a bad gay – I
don't know, all my flags. There’s a lot of flags.
JB: I don't know them all. I'm like, I think that I said,”I know that one under that one. I said, Let's
look that one up.” She's like, “well I know that one, because that's what my daughter is.” I’m
like, yes, that one's right. You know? I'm like that one, I'm not sure. And it was something, it
might have been gender fluid, or so it was, it was like, I'm not–whatever. But it wasn't like one of
the major it wasn't like– it wasn't like bi, trans, whatever [overlapping chatter.]
GW: This is fine. Whatever you feel the need to say on this record is totally okay.
JB: But I'm just saying it was one of the – I've seen it, I've just no clue what it is. I was like, it's
not one of the it's not one of the top five I know.
JW: I feel like I feel that way. Kind of the same, too. But speaking about roller derby, and like it
being queer or inclusive space for kids nowadays. Why do you think that is? Is there anything
you see in the space that just promotes like this inclusivity? Because I think we think about roller
derby as a queer space for adults, or at least I did really. Can you speak to it maybe as queer
space for adults or children? Or both?
JB: Maybe it's because it's not as mainstream of a sport. It is maybe I don't know the word you
used, I think you used “fringe,” maybe it's that. Kind of like theater and such, it is not saying that
it’s theatrics. But it's, it does seem to have a large group that gravitate towards that way. And so I
mean, when you're comfortable around people, and there's a certain environment, then people
kind of generate to that environment or are attracted to that environment, in my opinion. So like,
if you have a nice, safe, inclusive thing, then hopefully, more people who are looking for a safe
and inclusive space will continue to gravitate towards that space, which is probably why I think
that it maybe attracts that. I think maybe it's a little bit that it is not quite as mainstream. Hmm, I
don’t know. It's not in the school, you know what I'm saying, so it's kind of a not a…so it's kind
of something you have to seek out. And so maybe it's some of those kids that are seeking out
things that didn't find that spot for them in their school. I mean, there's a couple of – there's one
kid in there that I mean, I just love her to death. I've known her since – she and my niece, whose
14, went to daycare together. She calls us Aunt Holly and Aunt Julie, so I've known her since she
was like three and it just…It makes me smile when I watch her like interact with someone else
there and I'm like, “she has friends!” She's like, ‘Oh, so-and-so and I going to hang out!’ or ‘I'm
going over to so-and-so’s house to watch a movie!’ and blah blah blah. She's very much a
bookworm and very studious kid and I'm just like, “Aw!” you know what I’m sayin’? Like,
you're going over to go over to their house to watch a movie or like, “Can so-and-so come over
and spend the night?” And I’m like, oh you're the kid that I would be like, Okay, here's your new
Nook full of books, literally we had to take a book away from her at the dinner table, that kind of
kid, you know, and I'm just…to watch them grow, you know, they come in like baby fawn and
then they're like, Oh, now you're hitting your friends and knocking them down. You know, it
makes me smile. And it makes me hope that they have less struggle. I mean, I know they're
going to struggle. Everybody struggles with something. That's life, right? So what's their struggle
gonna be? Who knows? But apparently, economics.
GW: Me too. My dad played rugby in college, I got introduced to rugby from a very young age,
and women's rugby is also a very queer sport.
JB: Yeah, we have a couple of friends who you know, that's how they met. Yeah, definitely. I
mean, there's those sports: softball, basketball rugby, I guess roller derby. It is interesting because
literally like I said, rugby is not a mainstream sport around here too much.
GW: Yeah.
JB: Like, you know we don’t have a high school rugby team. We have a high school bass fishing
team, but we don't have a rugby team I tell you what, I'm interested to watch and see is the
emergence of women's flag football. I have so many friends whose daughters are high school
age, and flag football is becoming huge. Like, Northside, Northridge, all these schools. A lot of
these high school schools have women's or girls flag football. Because there's so many girls who
also want to play, I am going to be interested to see what that sport does. You have more people,
kind of sport-wise, gravitate to that. But it's interesting with the derby team to see these kids that
I'm like, “Yeah, they've never been on sports [teams]. They've never been on a team of any type.”
because they're all kind of, you know, but they found a group to hang out with.
GW: Yeah, I mean on roller derby and rugby and all the things. I feel like it's a place where
women are allowed to be really aggressive and physical. Like you're getting up in people's faces,
you're talking trash, you're encouraged to like, maybe not go for a cheap shot, but maybe get a
shot.
JB: Maybe it's just like, you know, there is a place where they're allowed to express emotions and
not have to repress them.
JW: Yeah.
JB: And I think that that's probably a little bit of like, my upbringing. Some of that. Even my
mom yeah, it's like, “yeah, well, so-and-so may think that but you don't say that.” You don't do
that, you know. And then I’m like, “Mom, sometimes people do some that.” Sometimes
people…sometimes you need to just yell at somebody else. People just need an outlet,
JW: I feel like that is a very southern thing to hear. Like, I can remember my mom saying stuff
like that to me. Like, just the repression of us. And I don't actually know where I was going with
that, so…
JB: No, you're right.
Maybe it's a southern politeness or I don't know… it's the “bless your heart” thing. I don't know.
I mean, it's not they don't gossip enough behind each other's back. It’s not like there's enough
“white trash” like whatever stuff that goes on around, but it's kind of like…I don't know. And I
don't want to call it “classism” in this, but it feels like sometimes they see someone doing that…
GW: Like “that's beneath us?”
JB: Yeah. or just like “were they not taught better?” Or were they not whatever? And I don't
know if it's a “respect” (air quotes) for our parents, whatever. I didn’t talk back to my mom and I
didn't fight with my mom, I just never was that kid and most…that's not necessarily I don't think
a girl thing. I think it's like a kid thing you know, like at some point in time you have conflict
with your parents but I think I'm just a very conflict averse person. And so is my mom, in a lot of
ways. So that's probably why we never talked about things. She had no idea about my first date,
really like she probably still has no idea that’s why I got dropped off at - she knows we got
dropped off in the movies - that I was meeting a boy or any of these things like that. So, yeah.
GW: I mean, speaking of adversity, you're a queer realtor in a very conservative small…I’d call
this not a small town, but maybe a small city. Have you faced any challenges or adversity in your
professional journey?
JB: Um, sometimes. there's probably more queer realtors than [the town] leads on but it is very,
it's still there. Like, I have a couple of friends and I remember taking screenshots of people's
Facebook page, and things…it's someone who will be solidly nice to my face. And like probably
doesn't even think about what they're posting or what they're saying on that level, on that
personal level. But I remember this one – thinking “really? they just said this?” about this, it was
an anti-trans thing and there was one that was like an anti-marriage, gay marriage thing that I'm
like, do they really realize what kind of hate they're posting on their page? And how that…they
don't really think about it being directly identified to me, you know…so it definitely is there.
And I mean, I will say that I'm pretty out. I don't necessarily immediately to tell all my clients,
just kind of, kind of wait and feel it out. I definitely have had clients that had no clue and then – I
helped this family and they…I don’t know, he gives us nine months to buy a house. He was his
truck driver, redneck, no one in their family ever owned anything in their lives, blah blah blah
blah, hugest Republican in the world. And I couldn't meet them for like, a meeting once. And so
I sent someone else to go meet them. This person, mind you, is a broker realtor of the year,
highly decorated, knows way more than I do in real estate. She calls me and she's like, “I don't
know what you've done to that man. But he didn't want anything…He didn't want to hear
anything I had to say. He wanted to know where was Julie, and what would she say about this?” I
don't know, she was like, because we are…he and I are definitely not like at all [unitelligable]. I
don't know, maybe it's somehow they were comfortable with me. Something like that, like when
you asked if I’d move but like, I'm sure the first time I said something about my wife. They were
like [makes a face] and then you know, by the end of the transaction, it was “When we gon’ meet
Holly and go to dinner?” And it was like [that with] all of my clients… just about maybe I’m just
a troublemaker, and pick up all the clients that are difficult and end up dealing with them forever.
JW: Obviously, it seems like you're very warm person. And in real estate, I know that that's very
important to make connections and such…so like, I can see how people would obviously want to
work with you. But do you ever feel like queer couples gravitate towards you at all?
JB: Sometimes. And I think that I mean, I've had, definitely had a good bit of queer couples.
Roller derby is also like, you know, folks that I’ve known for that. One thing I'm not comfortable
with in real estate, which is crazy because I was in marketing too, is I don't mind sales, but I
don't like to sell myself, which is kind of probably leads to what everything like that. So I think
people do when they do find, find me comfortable, or feel comfortable with me. We do become
kind of friends. So yeah, I definitely had it seems like queer couples, and I've had a few that have
been referred to me because of that. Not as many…you'd be surprised at, one how many realtors
are in town, and then two, how many of them are gay.
GW: Y’all got a club, like a book club or something?
JB: [laughs] There's some that are quite out there. And there are some that are kind of…
GW: Very under the radar?
JB: Under the radar.
GW: Do we have time to tell her about your insane house-buying experience?
JW: I don't know what time it is. But I can definitely bring it up.
GW: Oh, we got time. We got it…we got a little bit of time, we can talk about it.
JB: You’re fine.
GW: This is…the funniest thing.
JW: Basically…I bought, my wife and I bought a house here over a year ago. And our realtor
just the whole time thought we were a spectacle. You know, we were her queer couple, she
wanted to get together with us, have wine night, have Girl Talk type stuff, but we didn't do this.
But you know, she'd always bring it up. I know. You know, she wants to build an impression with
us or whatever. But she always really, really leaned into the fact that we were queer, and said that
we could use it as an advantage to us to get a house because it was during COVID like interest
rates are nothing. I also worked for a mortgage company at this time. And so, I knew kind of the
houses were flying off the market because I couldn't work with my loans fast enough, you know
what I mean? But so basically we would go see a house, and you know this is, within three hours
it sold or whatever. And she had a queer couple she was working with and set us up to view their
house and then had us write a love letter to them, you know, stating that we were gay, that we
were queer, that they should choose us for their house because they were queer. And so, I
brought this up in class. And we just kind of had the idea to ask you if you've ever had any crazy
stories like this or heard of any stories like this, or could speak to this in any way.
JB: So we have this conversation that Alabama and especially in Tuscaloosa is a very big small
town. I was the listing agent on that house.
JW: Are you freaking kidding me?
JW: off the record?
JB: might not even need to say anything,
JW: Iris is the queen of rainbows. And that somehow correlates to…
JB: Debbie's a lot.
JW: Debbie's a lot
JB: That’s all I got to say is Debbies a lot
JW: she will find, like if my wife and I are shoot, first off, she texts us like a year later, text us
nonstop. Like we will get six seven messages and not reply. Or um…
JB: I try not to do that to people. But sometimes.
JW: But its not messages like, “do you want to sell your house or something?” It's like, “Hey, do
you guys want to come over?” “How're are you guys doing?”
JB: It’s because she was from Keller Williams and they have 36 touches and you're supposed to
stay in touch with people because otherwise.
JW: That’s good to know because it makes me feel less freaked out.
JB: Yeah.
JW: Thank you for that.
GW: She's from what?
JB: She was at Keller Williams at the time that she's still at KW. And she I think so. Uhh see, the
thing about it is 80 what is it statistic? 70 or 80% of people say they would use their realtor
again, but only 40% do because they forget who they were.
JW: Oh, wow.
GW: Okay. Ah,
JWl: thank you honestly so much for this because now I can maybe tell my wife to stop being
afraid of her when she runs into her at the gym every single time
JB: Still be afraid of her, no im just kidding. No. just take Debbie as a solid grain of Salt.
JWl: Okay.
JB: She's hit on me before
JWl: Really?
GW: What!
PB: Wow
JW: I've wondered if anything was interesting.
JB: She’s hit on me before but it's I think it's just a Debbie. I don't know. I'm not sure. But I
mean, she's married to Wayne and like she was.
Okay. How do I say this, this is a small list. This is Debbie's house. This is one of my buddies.
Princesses is on roller derby. Right here is my buddy Megan and her husband's house.
JW: She living in like queertropolis or something?
JB: No, she just, she lives down like she lives in Alberta area. This was where Wayne was
brought up, um Like his family grew up, anyway, like that house would have been, but anyway.
But yeah, like Debbie. Yea Anyway, she'll probably invite you to the wine thing because she's
now the food and wine stuff so. She just, I don't know. She's just very much a lot.
JW: And I don't mean to just like shit on Debbie or anything. But she has freaked me out a lot in
the past shoot one night when we found this house, we can get back to the interview.
GW: I was gonna be like, bro, this is so.
JW: I'm sorry, we found this house we were interested in and we like there was a window that
you could crank it open. And I was like, really? I was just like, I like this window and she was
just like, What are you Amish you want to like go churn butter in the backyard or something.
And the way she said it to me was so stern. And I just like cried and felt really sad. Like never
wanted to work with her ever again. Because she also called my wife a like a mega nerd or
something like that. She's an engineer. And I was just like, Debbie, your sense of humor is evil.
And I don't like you stop trying to…
JB: Did you say that to her?
JW: No I was probably like, she probably tried to hug me and I was like, No, it's okay. I don't, I
don't think I want a hug right now.
GW: I’m COVID conscious.
JB: Oh, see, I’d probably made fun of you too. Or your wife but like in like a whatever way and
then we'd be like, afterwards be like hey, let's go have dinner and then we’d never go because it
never happened.
JW: Okay, thank you. I just, this is insane this happened, and that you have read my mind.
JB: Like you said that I was like “fuck”
GW: That’s so funny.
JB: And honestly, honestly um
God, I can't talk shit about Debbie. She wrote that letter. Um, I do remember that, and I
remember whatever some of that, and the other offer was ridiculous.
JW: awesome and our offers like can you guys pay closing costs please can we pay $5,000 under
asked, please. And she’s like this is totally going to work because they’re gay,
and they're like going to give you their house. Are we back on the record?
you know So anyway, thank you for talking about that.
JW: Your welcome
GW: That moment meant a lot to me personally.
JB: But see but see to me that's okay. So like going back to it's those relationships and to me, it is
building the relationships. And I want people to always feel comfortable be able to be
comfortable to me but I feel almost like I'm forcing someone to buy a house come next week.
But um we've gone down this road. We've been down this road so many times while whatnot.
And it is like, like, we're very comfortable and like it, but it's kind of like, don't tell me
something you want, because my job is to make sure you get that. And I will. I will be creative. I
will whatever, I'm not gonna break rules, but like, like I've only it's only happened once and I
walked out of a closing. And I just, I felt awful. And like I told my broker, I was like, she's like,
what's wrong? I just closed it. She's like, Okay, you look like someone just killed your puppy for
someone who just like closed the house. I'm like, Yeah, I said. It was a mistake. And she's like,
“what?” she's like, I said, she shouldn't have bought this house, I said this is too much. It's not
really the right thing. But what she did, she looked at me. She goes, Julie, people make mistakes,
and poor decisions every day, your job is to do what she said. And I was like, what you want?
And I said, You're right. I said I could have let the deal die three times. And creatively got it
back, and I said but you're right. That's my job. And so I guess maybe that's for me, not to bring
it back, or whatever. It's like, I want people to have a positive experience with me as a person.
But also, like, want you have a positive experience with this person, and I'm gay, I'm saying it's
kind of like, you know, it's like…
GW: It's not the first thing to learn, but it does come up, it does. When it does come up,
Julie: it's gonna come up, and it's gonna be like, and do you have problem? No. Okay, right.
Okay, so let's move on. And I mean, like, if you do, then we probably have a problem. And
number two, it's like, why? Not to be like, Oh, how could you not like me? And like, but like,
what, what, what inherently do you not like? Like, you gotta have like a pretty strong racist
answer, or some kind of whatever, predetermined bias.
GW: I mean, well, on the subject of bias, I want to go back to the roller derby league that's in
Tuscaloosa, or maybe even across Alabama, because I imagine you're with these. What are they
called matches?
JB: Bouts.
GW: these bouts you've probably got teams coming in from all over is roller derby relatively
diverse? Or do you think there's like room for improvement, there definitely is room for
improvement?
JB: Um there definitely is room for improvement, um so Tuscaloosa is a member of what's called
“WFTA”, which is the Women's Flat Track Association. Women being like the key point in that,
but um the junior one is all gender you did have what was called an MRD, which is men's roller
derby kind of snuck around. But you're starting to get more and more open gender. Um like
we've even hosted an open gender mixer ourselves I think that the evolution of the sport is going
to be more open gender. Because as my wife said, “I'm not pleasing gender”, there's definitely a
solid amount of trans, you can kind of have local teams, we also have a state, All-Stars team that
just started. But then there's other teams like black diaspora who was made of all African
American identifying, and then there's Indigenous Rising, which are all Native American, there's
a Jewish roller derby, Fuego who is like Hispanic, but they even have trans, united. So like, all of
those skaters identify as trans but like, I don't want to be in charge of identifying and determining
gender, you know, and so I think that will be the next evolution of it. Unfortunately, I think the
governing bodies have not quite gotten there yet. And part of that is just because life is changing
and evolving. And it is a volunteer organization. So I mean, it's not like someone's getting paid
to, I don't want to say, “diversify it”.
GW: Do you ever feel any sort of, or do you ever observe any sort of tension between this new
Bout and this new batch of up-and-coming, growing youth queer youth versus people who would
consider themselves to be, an “old” gay or like old school butcher or something?
JB: I think you do some, I think you do see a little bit of that. And I do know that some folks
who have been around Derby for a while, I knew one or so folks that are like, “I'm not playing
with men, because they're just too aggressive” and to whatever. But I'm starting to see some of
that change, or some of that's kind of, I don’t know I guess, dying out is not the proper word. But
like, it's, you know, the time happens, and it's like, “Oh, hey” it's an aggressive sport. And it's, it's
a physically active sports. I mean, like, there's some people that skate for 15 years, but then also,
some people get broken after two years or three years, you know.
GW: It’s Intense.
JB: So, eventually people just kind of age out, and I do think that that mindset, hopefully, is
aging out. So I think it will become even more open and warm.
GW: I really agree, I really want to get into a roller derby I've always been interested in it.
JB: We have recruitment in January or February.
GW: Bet. No, see me there.
JB: We do have non-skating officials if you don't want to skate. And we also have currently in
the adult League, mostly, the guys are refs, but we do have some of the guys who want to skate.
So whenever they're starting to train with some so that when those do when those open gender
opportunities come up, they're prepared.
So we could put you on skates.
GW: Oh, for sure. I'm into sounds absolutely super fun. I watched Weapon at a young age and
that really affected me mentally
JB: Remind me to show you the meme, but anyway.
PB: Could you talk about some of your happiest moments, and what made them special to you?
As well as like, if there was any music in your life that brought you joy or comfort while going
through or coming into yourself and learning more about you as a person and what you like.
JB: So yeah, I don't know. I mean, I'm old. I like a lot of old music that sounds bad, or whatever.
I'm a huge Billy Joel fan, which is really odd. Okay, so I was in band, theater stuff like that. I
love music. I love musical theater. I am not deep enough that when I listen to a song that I absorb
all those song lyrics. There are some I mean, Indigo Girls were one of those things. I know that
sounds old. I can remember like Indigo Girls, but this is the things, I can remember Indigo Girls,
Melissa Etheridge. And even like K. D. Lang and stuff when I was first coming out, and it was
kind of like, okay, all those people are queer artists. And look that they're kind of like they're
become some of them somewhat went mainstream. And it was something at least where you saw
like, “oh”, there are other gay people that are out there that are in the that are visual and out there
and seen. I love of all of their music, but most of it or a lot of it. It's pretty just listening, but, I
mean, I wish I took more time. I would say I wish I had more time, but my mom says,
“everybodys got same amount of time you just do with it as you want”. I wish I had or took more
time to be more involved in theater, I always wish I'm gonna go to like a production. I'm like,
Man, I really wish I could get back into some of it, probably the theater tech or the, you know,
the operation side because I really do like operations. But it probably just came to that
acceptance, stuff like that. But like, as far as identifying of it. And but I guess also there's this
kind of opportunities, like, go into seamless, or the Indigo Girls, whatever. It was a very large,
very accepting group if you would say. So it was kind of, yeah, you went to that to see that artists
but also, just to be around that energy in that group. Going out to the bar. Michaels was the first
gay bar I ever went to. I was under age snuck in, brought in the side door by probably someone
else who was underage. But you know, I can remember my actual 21st birthday and it was like,
Oh, it's my 24th birthday or whatever. Yeah, you know, so like, Michaels, and there were a
couple other gay bars in town at times. But just it being that like… you walked in as like a
walked in and just like, almost felt like the weight of the outside world was just kind of gone. I
don't know, because like you were in a fully immersive environment that you could or fully free.
PB: Michaels being that space for you. How were you affected? And what did you think when
they closed?
JB: Was sad. Because it wasn't sure you know what that space would be? I was a little bit older at
that point because Michaels has been closed for I'm guessing the same amount on the Chuckers
has been closed now which was 20 years. Just closed like 20 Something. I've been down here,
like I said since 94. So I think Michaels probably closed in 2003 I would think because I think
that's when the Chucker closed so it had been a very integral part of my life for nine or so years.
But other bars along the way too, because there's one called legends known as corncob rumors
and there was another one that I can't remember the name of. So I didn't always just go there, but
like, the hip popped up, but yeah. I do remember, in some ways later on be like, where's that
space gonna be? I think honestly, at that point in time in my life I was trying to get pretty serious
finishing school. I was actually finishing my undergrad and going class. And Holly and I were
together and I don't know, life was just kind of getting more serious. So I probably was not going
out. But yeah, so I guess that was kind of, you know. Closing that chapter was interesting. Now,
I'm not gonna lie. It was a dive bar. And there was some scary so there's been a lot of scary ass
bars in Tuscaloosa. But it was definitely one that was like, No. I remember folks going out in
open-toed shoes, and I was like “I would not go out and open toed shoes”. There's probably
communicable diseases on that floor that have not been discovered yet”
GW: open-toed shoes in a bar actually makes me nauseous.
JB: I was like, are you wearing those sandals? I'm not that girl thats like hmmmmm are you
wearing that tonight? Are you sure you want to go out?
GW: For the sake of your ability to maintain a healthy lifestyle? Are you sure about that? Like?
JB: We were talking about infrastructure. Tuscaloosa is very old. And the reason all the roads are
jacked up now is we have very old infrastructure. Like if you downtown, a couple years ago, it
was just actually it was during COVID, which is good. They're still clay trenches and sewer
trenches underneath there. So the infrastructure of downtown is nowhere near what it needs to
be. So like, where PJs is on the corner. That used to be the booth had a basement, it frequently
was flooded and just had this smell. Because there was sewage and so it was Michael's in that
area. So like the infrastructure of downtown not really great. So we probably all have black lung
from the bar or something.
GW: Wait, so PJs used to be the booth. I mean, I don't go to the booth for the sake of it's the
booth but like
PB “never been”
JW “never been”
JB: It was the booth back at least in the 80s or if not in the 70s. But yeah, on the corner there.
GW: So I know they moved. They moved downtown kind of over by…
JB: They closed completely and then they reopened back down there because it was such
fantastic and people were like “oh the booth”. Ever been to Harry's?
GW: Oh, yeah. Gotta love a blackout bucket, every once in a while.
JB: Harry's bucket. Yeah. Mines with all my shakers. It's like you just get them to go.
GW: You stole a Harry's paint bucket?
JB: You can get them to go.
GW: Oh, right. I forgot. You can.
JB: Can you know again?
GW: I don't know if you can do it again
JB: I even had a metal one at one time, mine's plastic. But yeah. I actually met the original Harry.
He died like a year or two ago.
1:08:25
GW: I can't believe Harry's used to do buckets to go. I don't think they do that anymore. For the
sake of you can no longer drive with an open container.
Jill: Or open bucket.
GW: Or alcohol period.
JB: You say this, but there's Daiquiri. There's a Daiquiri store on 15th Street and one Donald's
Island.
GW: There's a daiquiri store on 15th Street?
JWl: Can you get a Daiquiri at the gas station, on 15th?
1:08:48
JB: And then there's a daiquiri store down on Skyland I haven’t been to it but H somethings like
H2O to go or something like that.
1:08:55
GW: You know what we're gonna go on a little bit of an adventure field trip.
JB: Well, I remember Queen City there was this. University take a left, Queen City there was a,
for a lack of a better word it was a head shop at one time there, and that was like this, they had
weed paraphernalia and it was the only place you can get like, gay stuff to like actually have like,
rainbow flag or like.
GW: It's a what shop?
JB: We used to call it a head shop so it's like a place where you can get like weed paraphernalia,
and now you can get that at a gas station or whatever. But there was a shop it was called
Illusions. And I remember walking in there one time, anyway, it was, it wasn't really the gay
store in town. But I guess kind of it was only place if you wanted pride rings or something like
that.
GW: I mean, in terms of all of these different places in Tuscaloosa is there like a place that will
always have a special? Maybe it's not what it used to be, its not the same business but maybe that
space just holds something valuable to you, and what that is?
JB: Um, I don't know. I mean, like Michaels is where Government Plaza is so it kinda has that…
If you've ever been to Manna Grocery?
GW: Yeah.
JB: Manna smells exactly like it did in 94. Whatever, whatever's in there, I remember walking in
there recently and I swear it was like I got hit in the face with being a freshman. And that smell
just took me straight back. This is not necessarily a this is kind of a place. It's kind of a whatever.
I guess, kind of a, probably just a me and a personal thing. So my freshman year, I lived in
Parham. And now there's Parham, east and west. And I think there's housing on both but it used
to be just the east side which faced Burke, and that was a women's dorm. And Burke was a men's
dorm. So there was a courtyard in between it. There used to be a big fence around it. So now it's
like opened up. But used to you couldn't you know there was a huge, there's a fence, not just a
fence, like a wall, like a fortress-like wall. And there's a way to get into it. They had that
courtyard, and it was kind of secluded, and it was kind of dark, and it was kind of whatever. And
I guess to me, it was, it's funny because I teach. And I teach this semester at Adams, and so I
park in that deck that's right by there. And I normally go off Bryant but I went out the other side.
And I drove by and , I looked over and I was like the courtyards open up like it's a courtyard
again. And it just kind of stopped me because I can remember going there. When I was a
freshman, trying to figure out things, sitting there with Jennifer and talking to her and l don’t
know. It was just, all of a sudden, boom, a flood of emotions a little bit. And it sounds like I said,
it was not a great relationship. But it was just one of those, and it just kind of stopped me for a
second and just kind of, yeah, I don't know. So I guess, I don't know why that spot. But I guess
just like I remember there being like a bench in that corner. That was kind of tucked away, you
couldn't see. No one from a room could see you right there or whatever. I don't know. It was
almost a safe space.
GW: Yeah, for sure. I mean, I think those are the most important places. Maybe they don't have a
plaque designating it. But to me, this will always be that place.
JB: Yeah.
GW: This will always do something for me.
JB: And campus is always a little more brighter now. Which I’m not saying is a bad thing.
Because, you know, shadows can be bad, but like, there are a couple places that I remember on
campus you know, I was like, “Oh, that would be where you gonna meet somebody”, or
something like that. Used to if you want to talk about old-school rumors. Gorgas Library, I think
it was 2M which is like the mezzanine floor, the men's room. Men's bathroom used to be like,
basically, it was like the Tinder of the day. It was that was just the hookup place. Like if you're
gay in school, or on the DL.
PB: That's crazy.
GW: This is the best assignment ever, I'm having so much fun. I mean, I think unfortunately, I
have one question, which is very devastating.
PB: So what would you like a young queer person to learn from you if you could share
something with them?
JB: Um. Don't be scared to experience your own personal joy. Don't, don't. I'm not saying that.
I'm not saying that you reach the point where you infringe on someone else. But, don't let your
fear of acceptance of other people, because it's really about acceptance of yourself. Be accepting
of yourself. Live your journey. I think you always have to be careful in life and make wise
choices. Don't just totally leap before you. Look, but don't be afraid to take those chances. And if
something feels good, I don't know. I won't say don't be scared. But you know, I'm saying, don't
run and I know so many people who, it's kind of interesting. We talked about, like people my age
who have kids. That are out now, like they knew in high school, but they came to college or
something happened and they went back in the closet until they got to the point where they're
like, You know what, I'm just gonna live my life and do my thing. And some of them are very
regretful, of the fact of matter of how much time they lost, being able to be their true and
authentic self. Because, even if you want kids I mean, there's the barriers aren't there that used to
be.
GW: for sure. This was excellent and an honor and we cannot thank you enough.
JB: Hey, thank you I enjoyed it too. I can't believe it, but yeah, anyway.