ED: So, to start off with a couple formality questions, what is your name?

RT: Ray Taylor.

ED: Wonderful, and just to introduce all of ourselves so it’s a little bit easier…

GT: My name’s Grace.

ED: I’m Elena, El is also fine.

SE: I’m Sasha.

GM: My name’s Grant.

RV: I’m Rachel.

ED: Where are you from?

RT: I’m originally from Silas, Alabama, which is in Choctaw County, which is a rural county south of here along the Mississippi border above Mobile.

ED: And if you don’t mind me asking, how old are you?

RT: I’m sixty-four.

(1:16)
ED: So, when did you, while you were growing up, start to understand that you were gay?

RT: Well, I guess junior high, maybe even earlier, I knew I was different. All my siblings played [foot]ball. I did not. They tried and I tried, but it just wasn’t my thing, and I’m from a very sports-orientated family, from my mother to my father to all my siblings, which are three sisters and a brother, they were all all-stars. Not just sports but all-star sports, so I knew I was different. I knew I liked to play house, I knew I liked to - me and my sister- tell me if I’m going too detailed…

ED: No, it’s perfect.

RT: I have three older brothers and sisters, and then ten years, and then it was me and a younger sister. So, I really grew up with my younger sister, who is just a year and a half younger than me, so we’re the ones that played together all the time. We were never apart. In fact, people thought that we were twins because we were always the same size. So, back to the original question, I thought I was different, but I did my part. I would go to their games, and I kept score - the official scorekeeper because my father was the coach, and there was a specific way he wanted it, so I had to learn, and I had to do it. So, I had my part, I just didn’t play ball. Then, junior high was when I got interested in other guys and, “Why do I wanna do this?” But also, I don’t know how it is in this day and time, but back then, all guys kinda fooled around, and it was kinda like a phase, and then they’d turn out - half my friends- well, I’d say 95% of my friends turned out to be straight, but they still play[ed] around in junior high. You know what I’m saying? So, I didn’t know that I wasn’t going to be alright later on. I grew up in a very religious family; we sang gospel music all over the south of Alabama, as a family, as a group. So, I knew it was wrong, and at that time I thought it was wrong, so it was very stressful. But, I guess that later (in) highschool, I dreamt of not being gay and that I would eventually marry, have children. I always wanted to have children, and if I was younger, in this day and time, I would adopt. But, I guess college is probably when I realized I was not growing out of this phase.

ED: So, in that period of junior high, was that like twelve, thirteen-ish?

RT: I was a late bloomer, so I would say more like thirteen to fifteen.

ED: So, what were your family dynamics like growing up? I know you said some were a lot older, but….

RT: Yeah, they were fine, me and my sister were really good, close friends, and still are. Well, I mean, the whole family’s close, but we’re a family that doesn't talk about things. It’s best not to talk about them, but we all got along, there were no family rifts, it was a pleasant growing up, no drama or anything, and so I guess that’s fine. They are still very supportive. Now, we never talked about this; some of my siblings, we have never just talked about things. My younger sister, we have. They’re knowing it now, and it’s - that’s another story, how I came out and everything, but it was, as far as family, it was a very loving and supporting, pleasant upbringing, which I think is probably rare, in this day and time. Growing up in the sixties and seventies, you see, I graduated highschool in seventy-six, so my highschool years were early seventies, and that was the crazy time, and the sixties was the flower power… and I had older brothers and sisters, so I remember all the sixties stuff, and all the bands and everything, because my older siblings were playing that. Even though I was five, six, and seven, I remember them playing that music and knowing all about the sixties.

ED: So, what was your sort of perception on gayness when you were growing up?

RT: Well, there wasn’t a perception of gayness, I was a sissy. I was someone who was a sissy, that’s it.

ED: Yeah, can you describe sort of how- well, first of all, I should ask, really- at what point did you sort of start coming out?

RT: I started kinda coming out right after college graduation. I wound up staying here in Tuscaloosa. I interviewed across the southeast for some jobs. My degree’s in interior design, so I knew I wasn’t going back home, because there was no place like that; they’d never even heard of that degree. But, I started with some close friends, and I got involved with the theater. I was in my first play ever in 1981. I got a semi-lead. I just got the fever and I never got rid of it, so with my theater friends, I was a little more open with that. So, I guess I would say right after college.

ED: And so, is that the Bama theater just down the road?

RT: Well, the Bama theater’s a building, but yes, we did perform in the Bama theater.

ED: Okay, gotcha. So, can you describe a little bit about how things changed, like, particularly emotionally, before you came out versus after you came out in that space of time?

RT: Well, I was in a good place. I was kinda having - what is the saying about having your cake and eating it too? I was a minister of music in youth in a Baptist church, but also, I was having a little bit of a gay life too, but it was just quiet. And, I was doing some very good work in that church, and I got to be a friend of a guy that was married, [with] children. And, his uncle told the First Baptist Church Minister of Music that his nephew, who is married and had children, was playing around with a Minister of Music out in Cottondale or Elvert City, and it got into a mess, and I had to resign and, therefore, I was forced out. And then, I wasn’t in a good state of mind at all, and I hibernated for a year. I didn’t go out anywhere; I had one little outlet of a choral group that I would go to those rehearsals and come home, and that was it. Maybe a few of my friends that I was close to would come over to my apartment or something like that. I was very close to a nervous breakdown. My parents realized something was wrong. I think they figured it out, but we never talked about it.

ED: Did you feel as though art and performance and that sort of thing was a continuous safe space throughout your life?

RT: Yes, yes.

(9:20)
ED: So, I know you mentioned that you grew up in a very religious household, can you talk a little bit more about that, like what that was like?

RT: Well, everybody thought I was going to be a minister of music. Music came very easily to my family; we’re all very musically talented, playing and singing, so my three older siblings became a trio, the Taylor Trio, and then when Cindy and I came along, we became the Taylor Family. And then, eventually, the older ones got married, had children, and couldn’t come to everything, and then it became just Ray and Cindy. My father was very supportive of religion, and he was a religious person, but he didn’t go to church with us as much. But, my mother, every time the door was open, we were there and supportive. It was a small church, so we did our part. I led the music from probably thirteen until I left for college in the church. It wasn’t a bad thing. I'm still basically religious, but being forced out like it is, I believe in God. It took me a while, but I finally came to the realization that God made me the way I am; I didn’t choose it. So, it took a while to get to that stage, but I think that was part of my problem when I was forced out. Now, I don’t feel comfortable in church anymore, and it’s been thirty years - or forty - so, I’m still not comfortable in church. I’ve tried going back, some of the freer churches like the Bridge, the United Methodist, and stuff is really good now. I go to a church once a month called the Tavern, which usually meets in a bar, and we sit there and we just discuss being good people, and how God is good and The Bible, we talk about good things, not bad. I’m still religious, I just don’t do it formally.

ED: Yeah, that was really interesting when you were saying shift over time between being made a certain way rather than choosing it. Can you talk a little bit more about that?

RT: Well, I just thought I was doing wrong, because with religion, homosexuality was wrong. I would - I don’t know if this is recorded if I should say that. There were certain things that I would refrain from doing because I felt that was bad, and I never did look to do anything with anyone else for a while because I’d punish myself. I’d say I can’t do this for a month. I can’t do this for six weeks. Trying to grasp where I needed to be, I was going in the wrong way - going in the wrong way. And then, like I said, even though I was little bit more free, working in that church, I had gotten young kids, I didn’t force religion on them, but I led them in bible studies, which I taught good things, but then they became good people and they wanted to come to church, and they wanted to be around other good kids. I know one was very on the borderline of being in a bad group, but she would always come, and we became very good friends, as well as mentors, and the week before I left, I had taken them on a mission trip. And that church, they had never been on a mission trip, and they all sang without books, and they had never sung without books and did a whole concert. You know, so I was doing good things, I just couldn’t understand why I could not do both. And that’s why it was so hard on me when I was pushed out.

ED: Yeah, so, uh, going back, but what denomination?

RT: Southern Baptist.

ED: Baptist. What sort of relationships did you see between those close to you and religion?

RT: Now repeat that?

ED: What relationships did you see between people close to you, like, in your family or friends and religion? How do you think they sort of impacted your view of those people or religion as you were growing up?

RT: I never disliked anyone because of the religious part. I understood - family and religious friends… We all got along great, and even after me coming out, the majority of my friends were still friends, and they knew how I was growing up. As far as religious people, that maybe were shocked or probably knew, when it finally came down to being spoken, I would say probably 75-80% of them were fine with it and continued - maybe they weren’t fine with it, I’m just saying they supported me. They did not hate me. When they saw me they’d all ask “How’s everything going?” and stuff like that. I would say that's a positive. You know I’ve rarely had any major ugliness. This may be shooting a little bit forward, but the guy that I was friends with that was married and had a child, we wound up together, and he left his wife and kids, and we were in business together. We had a flower shop. And when the people, the churches that we did church arrangements for every week (they brought business into the business because of their relationship through the churches) were very upset and would come in and literally cuss us out and say, “I'll never do business with you again.” And so the business suffered for a while. But we got through that, and, and then became the token gay couple that all high society wanted to know and be. And so we became the flower shop and the wedding people to go to. And we rode on that for several years.

ED: So I'm just making sure I have that timeline right. So you opened the flower shop with your partner and then…

RT: Well, he already had it. It was established.

ED: Okay, gotcha, gotcha.

RT: I had just moved in.

ED: Okay. What was the name of the flower shop?

RT: Azalea Garden.

ED: Oh, lovely.

RT: And I'm looking for some pictures of the front of it. They asked for that, and I even called some friends, so we were looking for a picture of it from the outside.

ED: Mm-hmm. And is it, is it, has it closed down or…?

RT: Yeah. He closed it down not too long after I left. I stayed when he left me for a younger person. I stayed with him for a little bit, but I just couldn't move for about a couple of years. And then I moved out and started my own business, and then he kept it for a little while, and then it got to… that was when the grocery stores were having flowers. It became, there wasn't a need to have a storefront anymore, so he did it out of his home for the last probably 15 years of his business. And he just passed away last year, the year of this December.

ED: What was the business that you opened?

RT: Um, well I have a degree in interior design, so I opened R. Taylor Designs. So I did interior design.

ED: That's lovely. Is that still going?

RT: It's still going, but just on the back burner. I don't have to do it, but I still enjoy doing it. But I do a lot here at the UA. I'm manager of the mansion, so I make sure it looks nice all the time, upgrades and things. And right now, I'm on the committee for the university club remodel. I helped a little bit with the Bryce House, when they would… the board would call and say, “Hey, will you go look at this? We're not sure about it.” Things like that. And privately I do, I still have probably five clients I've had over the years that anytime they want something new they come to me.

ED: That's lovely. Where are your main sources of inspiration when you're designing those kinds of things?

RT: Um, nowadays, it's not much, but I used to be a buyer for two businesses as well. And so, when you go to market, I would go to Atlanta Market three times a year, and you're seeing what's new and what's coming, or, what's coming down the track. And so you just look ahead. Magazines are a great source because they know what's coming down the track. I mean the color, the color wheel, the, the pantone color, that's the color of the year. They're picked three years out. I mean, that's how far out the design world is before it gets to you. So, when I would go to New York Market, just walking down the street and looking at what's coming, it takes it about three years to get to Tuscaloosa from New York. But, what's coming down you can get, and be a little bit ahead of the game and know what's coming. So, I guess just going and traveling and going to the high markets was my inspiration. Nowadays, It could be anything, depending on what I do. If I'm doing flowers for a wedding - this past weekend she loved eucalyptus, so I had to/I knew I had to work around eucalyptus. So, how was the best way I could make her happy with eucalyptus? So, it depends on the specific event, I think.

(19:14)
ED: That's so delightful. Um, so shifting gears a bit to talking a bit more about your family…

RT: Mm-hmm.

ED: Um, how has the meaning of the word family changed as you've grown up?

RT: I guess because I'm single and I don't have kids, I think family moves onto the next generation. And so now, all my siblings are more about their family than what was ours. Now, we all still love each other, but we're the second tier where we used to be the first tier.

ED: Mm-hmm.

RT: Does that make sense? That's, that's how, I guess I feel family. I mean, I still am very very close to my family, but I never see them - very rarely. You know, maybe twice a year that we all get together. And unfortunately, it's been at sad events, like when someone passes away, or we try to have at least one Christmas celebration together because that meant a lot to my parents who are gone now. And, my younger sister, I keep up with a little bit more than my others because I'm kind of planning my retirement to be near her. So, because if nature happens correctly, it'll be she and I, the last ones. And so, I kind of want to, since I don't have any other family, would like to be near her.

ED: So where is near her?

RT: Where's her, where is she?

ED: Yeah. Like where?

RT: She's in Gulf Shores.

ED: Okay.

RT: She's the principal of Gulf Shores High School.

ED: So is all of… are all of your siblings sort of spread out across Alabama?

RT: Yes. Now, both my sisters are retired. One of them lives in Silas, lived there most of her life. My other sister lived here in Tuscaloosa in different places. She's back in Silas right now, but she's back and forth with being with her daughter in Nashville, or her son in north Alabama. And then… now we're all there. My brother lived in California for a while, but he passed away last year, as well. So, his family though, his sons, one of them lives here, and one of them lives in Silas. And then, I have a niece in California.

ED: Are you close with your nieces and nephews?

RT: Very close.

ED: Mm-hmm.

RT: They surprised me. One time, for my 50th birthday, my niece that lived nearby at the time said, “Ray, I wanna take you out, Uncle Ray. I wanna take you out for dinner.” So she planned it, and I was just complaining. I said, “I don't really have time.” And I said, “So it's gonna have to be late. I'm busy up until eight o'clock so we can't eat till eight.” “That's fine. It's fine.” And, I get there, and it's all my nieces and nephews and no siblings. No, it was only my nieces and nephews and me. So…

ED: That's delightful. Um…

RT: I have 12.

ED: So, what people in your life would you consider to be your family? So, even beyond your siblings and your nieces and nephews?

RT: Hmm. I have lots, lots. Some deceased, some still around. I had a mentor named Noah Wright that was like family. My ex-partner was a “family” that passed away. I view his kids as my family. I helped raise them a little bit, because they were 13 and 5, or 12 and 5 I think when he divorced. Um, I have lots of best friends. Greg Howard, somebody I knew for years, he still lives in town. We've grown a little bit apart. It is funny how friends come and go in your life but they're still there. And some, you can just pick right up with, and some you can't. So, gosh, I could think of hundreds of names I consider family.

ED: So how have those people sort of played a role and helped shape who you are and how you view yourself?

(23:24)
RT: Well, people like Noah when I was younger, I think they help as a mentor. I learned how he did things, and he would shape me. Like, “You need to do this and, and you can do that.” They helped raise me. I guess I should say if there were a gay mentor; he was not because he wasn't. But, I'm trying to think if there were any kind of gay mentors that I looked up to and respected. I think I just grew up with friends that kind of were gay too, and kind of raised each other and learned about each other. Beause, when I was in my twenties, it was a fun thing to be gay, so you really didn't wear the gay flag on your back. You just kind of tried to blend in, until it became an issue. And then, I was forced out, and then all my Krewe members, you know I started the Krewe, I'm sure y'all read about that. So, we were 12 people that kind of just…wanted to do something, first of all to make a difference. But nobody could speak to the public, but I could because I was outed and everybody knew I was gay, so I would speak for the group, and that became important in years later. But now, that's not an issue anymore. And of course, we had the gay bar to go to and, but that's straying from your question. I guess they helped shape me to who - well, all circumstances shape you to who you are - but they did have a lot to do with it.

ED: How was that? Being the person that could really talk about things because you were out?

RT: It made me a stronger person because I had to do it, and I was a little uncomfortable. And sometimes yes, we didn't know if we were gonna get protested because I was putting it in the paper and talking about this fundraiser, or if we were gonna have a protest at the Alabama Theater, or we were gonna have people come and buy a ticket. And fortunately, we've never had a protestor, and we have probably a 50% straight crowd coming to our ball.

ED: That's amazing. Um, so I know that you attended the University of Alabama…

RT: I did. Mm-hmm.

ED: Yeah. So, what kinds of people did you sort of tend to surround yourself with while you were here?

RT: Well, religious people, because I was very shy. Um, my parents didn't think I was gonna make it. They thought they were gonna have to bring me back to a smaller college, but this is where I wanted to go, and they made that happen. The first year, I lived with my sister who lived here, so I was not really on campus. I would come to classes, and I would go home off campus, and I would [go to] the Baptist Student Union then called, Baptist Campus Ministries now because they had a choir. My sister was in the BSU choir at Livingston, and she said, “You should look into the choir.” So I did. So I became a member of that choir, and I would come sing on Thursday nights and rehearse, and then go away. And so, I never saw those people other than that rehearsal. I never went out anywhere. I'd come to class and home, and then I would go home almost every weekend, which was about two and a half hours then, now it's two hours. It was just different roads you had to go. Didn’t have interstates. It was the Baptist Student Union and then, after the end of my freshman year, they went on a choir tour, and I was scared to go because I really didn't know any of 'em. But I wanted to go. So I went, and that's how I became friends with the people in the choir. And then, the next year, we became friends, and we would go out to eat, and I would just go down there and hang out and a little bit of my shyness was coming out.

(27:42)
RT: I'm still very shy and people don't believe it, but it's just hard, especially with as much as I've done on stage. But you're someone else then, and you're not Ray, and it's very hard for me now to look people in the eyes until I get to know them very well, and I'm usually not the first to speak…

ED: Mm-hmm.

RT: And a lot of people think that's haughtiness or snobby. But it's just a fact of life for me. I want to know someone wants to talk to me before I talk to them.

ED: Mm-hmm. Yeah…

RT: I would never call anybody. It was very rare. I wanted people to call me because I was afraid I was invading something that they really didn't wanna talk to me at that time.

ED: Mm-hmm.

RT: That was very stressful for me.

ED: That's exactly how I feel about calling people. Um, so you mentioned that when you were, when you traveled with your choir…

RT: Mm-hmm.

ED: …and that traveling when you're working on your design really sort of helps, like, the creative juices. So, do you feel like you have a special connection to travel and sort of growth within that?

RT: I do because I don't mind traveling by myself, and a lot of people would. I think that probably goes back to my shyness, I just give 'em my little world, and then therefore I can do exactly what I want to do. And, people would still criticize me for going to the same places all the time. I said, “Why would I wanna go somewhere else when I love going there?” You know, I learn something new every time. I love New Orleans; I go there two or three times a year. I used to go to Atlanta a lot. I'm not into Atlanta as much anymore, but, I don't go to New York as often as I want to, but I try to go every two to three years and catch up on plays, so I just go and see about six plays in a long weekend and come home, and I've got my fill.

ED: Mm-hmm.

RT: I've traveled. I've never traveled abroad alone. The first time I went abroad, I traveled alone, but I met some people…

ED: Mm-hmm.

RT: …already there. And so I don't know if I would do that. And some destinations, I might not go by myself, but I have no problem eating in a restaurant by myself. I have no problem being by myself anywhere.

ED: Mm-hmm.

RT: But yes, I do love to travel.

ED: Do you think that there’s *coughs* excuse me, allergies. I know you mentioned when you’re on stage it’s like it’s not really Ray anymore. Do you feel like there's a separation when you’re traveling somewhere else between being in your home base?

RT: Probably, I would have never thought of it, but it probably does because no one knows who I am, and I can be what I want to be.

ED: So, is there a level of comfort that's different in places that aren’t Alabama?

RT: Yeah, Especially if I'm going somewhere that’s highly gay-oriented. I've never wanted to live in an all-gay world because I feel like it takes all of us to make a world, and I enjoy everybody. And I have some - I used to have a friend that would get mad and he says, “Ray you have too many friends, that's not fair that you have - if you have work friends, you have gay friends, you have straight friends, you have married friends, you have children that are your friends. It’s not fair enough,” and I said well, you know, but it’s true, I just. . . I have friends, and my father said, “your integrity makes you who you are.” So, I’ve always tried to do exactly what I said I would do, and because of him, I think it’s gotten me a long way in this world.

ED: That's lovely. Your integrity makes you who you are. Is there… Are there any other things that your parents used to say that…?

RT: “Never be idle.” Always. If it’s just grabbing a broom and sweeping the floor, I'm never idle, very rarely, except when I'm at my desk or something like this. I'm walking, I'm checking things at home. When I get home, we fix dinner. If we sit down to watch something, I'm asleep. So it's just like, I go and go and go until I go to sleep. Then, I get up and I go and go and go and go to sleep. I’m getting slower, but I'm still going. People, just walking with them, will say, “Ray you need to slow down.” That's how I do things fast.

ED: That makes sense. That’s delightful, “never be idle.” I'm gonna remember these. So I guess sort of in connection with traveling and feeling more comfortable in certain spaces, were there any spaces that you grew up in that you felt particularly safe or at home? And it may have been because it was more gay friendly, but you didn't quite know why yet at the time when you were growing up?

RT: Well, it was very rare for me to go so far that I felt uncomfortable because of being called a sissy. I would go to sporting events with my family. So, sometimes the older kids would heckle me and make fun of me and things like that. But my home, my church, my friends, we all... I was always pretty comfortable. As long as I was with someone, I didn't get awkward when people yelled and screamed at me, even in high school, and that's why I say I think everybody knew. We just were blind. We just didn’t talk about it. So, my sister was, my younger sister was a cheerleader, and she was everything, but younger than me, so she was never in the same thing. So, when a coach that I had… [I] was very shy because if he looked at me, I would just melt because he was this coach, and he was good looking and everything, and I would just cringe. He knew that, and he would play on it. And of course, he and my sister and her husband, they were friends socially. So, he always knew my business, and he would embarrass me like “Ray, why didn’t you call me to have fried chicken at your house last night.” And then, I would just cringe and I couldn't even speak to him. You know, he'd just do this in class in front of everybody. So anyway, he came to me, it was going into my senior year, by the end of my junior year, he says “Ray, I want you to run - I want you to be a cheerleader.” And I said “I-I don't know,” he says “Why?” Because I was always the pep person in the stands that was keeping it going and, and cheering with the cheerleaders and... So, I thought about it. Listen, I'd really like to do that. But I felt like I needed to get permission. So, I went to my mom and she said, “Well,you know you gotta ask your dad.” So, I just said “Dad, I really want to be a cheerleader. Coach Johnson asked me to be one. And I didn't know what you thought about it.” And he said, because again, we didn't talk about things. He said, “Well, it will be right up your alley, if you want to do it.” So I did it, and yes, there were some awkward moments, and there was some ridicule. And at one away game, the whole crowd from the other team were heckling me. So, I left the field and went out in the parking lot. My family came out there and said, “Mm-mm, get right back out there,” and said, “You signed up for this. You can do it.” And I ran back on the field and of course, my team and my side, yelled and screamed at me to give me some confidence, and so, there's been some safe places that were safe, and then they’d get not, and they’d get scary, and then they’d get back safe again. So I think it's just a mixture of emotions.

(35:50)
ED: Yeah, so what public spaces, especially in Tuscaloosa, but really anywhere I mean I know that you travel as well and what public spaces feel safe to you or felt safe to you?

RT: When? Then or now?

ED: Then… and then also now.

RT: Well, back, during the college days, I didn't go out a lot, but I mean I'm gonna go to the grocery store and not feel uncomfortable then, but if I went in where it was mainly men or sports or things like that I was… I was on guard that somebody was gonna ridicule me or say something about how I was dressed or something like that. Back when I finally started going out to like Michael's, to the bar, that was when Wayne and I were together already, so we already had a circle of friends and then, going out but I got used to it. I never went… I would feel uncomfortable if I went into a straight bar. Because I didn't know what they were gonna say… “why are you in here” and stuff like that. But no, after Michael's closed, we kinda before we could get another... We had to force ourselves into some little places and most of them were accepting and no problem whatsoever, and then we had one little incident at Catch 22, but now all that’s over and we're all friends again and stuff like that and so we feel more comfortable, I do, in any of the bars. I'm not going to Coppertop on a ball game day because they would say, “look this is our bar, what are you doing here?” But I know that that bar would probably… they would probably not say anything about me coming in there. But, I will get some looks. But, just like I go to Houndstooth on game day, that doesn’t bother me; Egan's, because Egan’s was kind of just kind of edgy anyways. But maybe Coppertop is the only one I would really feel uncomfortable going in right now, and I don't know why. But, there was a shooting in there. There were, I think, other issues that may tend to be there, but we used to go there and watch the games all the time, and I never felt uncomfortable, but I guess nowadays I kind of feel uncomfortable there, but I go everywhere else. I go to Session and all that, I’m almost a founding member of Session. But he - the guy who owns Session - used to work in Catch 22 when we were younger, and we used to go into Catch 22, so I’ve kept up with him over the years when he moved around. So, I don't feel really uncomfortable going really anywhere right now. It will be very rare and it may be the situation, not the place.

ED: So I know you mentioned Michaels, what did that mean to you? What position did that hold?

RT: Well to be perfectly honest, when it first started, I wouldn't go, because he owed our flower shop a lot of money. Not the guy who owned it, but his parents put the money in it. His parents were good people, and he's a good person. But he owed us a lot of money. And, I was going “Why am I supporting him? He owes us.” Well, he finally got us to come, and we never had to pay for anything. So, that's how I got our money back. Through the years, back then, gays weren't known to hold a job. You know, they were flighty, they were just for fun. They really didn't take life seriously. And, I did not want to be one of those people, I wanted to support myself. I wanted to pay my bills. I wanted to be a citizen and a rounded person. And so, I was hesitant to go down there when he did that. But, we all became good friends and we went there all the time then, and even through all the owners, we were very close to all the owners because they knew us, and so, when the new ones came in, they depended on us to help them make sure it was doing things. You know, all of them came in and did something different, but they didn't want to offend. They didn’t want to offend people, so they said, “Hey, what do we not want to do, that's gonna make people mad or not want to come?” Stuff like that. So we remained close, all the way up to Harpo.

ED: So, when you say “we go into Michael's,” would that be you and your partner?

RT: Yes my partner and Greg. Like I mentioned, it was the three of us for years, and then, it would be multiple groups, maybe not go together but we'd meet: “Hey, let's go to Michael's, we’ll see you down there.” So, we’d all meet there and hang out together. And that's kind of how the 12 got together. It's how we met and became friends when we started the group.

ED: Mm-hmm. Um, were there any other spaces, like bars or bookshops or other businesses?

RT: Well, hold on, the name escapes me right now that was just a walk away… I'm sure you've got it in your notes, but oh gosh, what was the name of that… oh well, it will come to me in a minute. It was one of those… It was kind of a straight bar, but it had like a gay night, and they had that before Michaels opened. And so I would go to – on occasion, they would have a drag show, which was really not anything like what a drag show is today. It was just people dressing up in women's clothes and either singing live or pantomime, but it was not to the scale it is now. It would be like choir robes. I remember sneaking choir robes out of my church so they could wear it while singing the song. I had gone back and I'd go put it back in the church, stuff like that. And then it was just mainly, guys just having fun.

ED: That’s lovely. Um, what private spaces felt safe to you? So like friends' houses or anything like that?

RT: That would be it. You know, each other's houses we’d go to, we felt comfortable in everybody's house. Our house was always a hub, but those 12 friends would go there. We divided the houses up over the year. We met every month. We called it our birthday dinner, and we’d celebrate whoever’s birthday it was that month.

ED: That’s lovely. How have gay spaces changed in West Alabama over your lifetime?

RT: Well, they’ve become later. We used to go out at 7:00 and have a great time and be home by 11:00. Now, you start at 11:00 or 12:00 and get home at 3:00. And, that’s why I don't really go to Icon that much because if I go up on it at 7:00, there’s gonna be nobody there, if it’s even open. I don’t think it opens until 9:00. And I feel guilty about that. But also, I know that's his business, and that's the way he needs to run it. But, I'm not gonna go at 11 o'clock, unless it's a special occasion. And, I don't stay too long when I go then; but, I know he gets upset when we go to happy hour at straight bars. But, we're at the age where we get to happy hour, and then we go eat and go home. We’re not the young kids that want to dance. We were, years ago. They’re a little freer. It just amazes me how the younger kids are out in high school and how they feel comfortable in their skin to dress the way they want to dress and say what they want to say and be as swishy as they want to be because that wasn't anything - like, you didn't want to do that when I was in highschool, and so that it amazes me that they have the freedom. I'm glad they have the freedom, don't get me wrong, but that's some changes that are hard for me to accept. You know, I'm just amazed.

ED: So do you feel as though the focus of spaces for gay people have shifted to just be more towards younger generations?

RT: I do, I do. I think, because for years we wanted to open an adult gay bar that had a piano player playing at 5:00, and it was open to come, and not that young people couldn’t come, but it was for the people that didn’t want to stay out all night, and we were too old to dance the night away, but if they wanted to dance they could. But, we would come and have happy hour and talk and have a little bit of entertainment, and then go home, and still have maintained your jobs the next day. You gotta get up and go to work, you can’t just stay out and do all that.

ED: That sounds like it would be a lovely community and space.

RT: I know, I know, still maybe, but I don’t think that today you need necessarily a gay bar, except for the younger kids who like to dance and everything. Unfortunately, for the straight people who are getting married and wanna have a bachelorette party, that’s about the things the brides always want to go there and do that.

(45:55)
ED: So, I know that you’ve brought up the Krewe a couple times, so what sort of prompted you to get involved with the West Alabama Aids Outreach?

RT: Well, our Group of 12 was at a Christmas party, and we had a progressive dinner, and we had hors d'oeuvre at our house, and then went to another house and had dinner and had dessert, and we were giving out gifts, and we started talking about Mardi Gras coming up, and we’re saying that we should all go to Mardi Gras, and we said, “Why don’t we have a Mardi Gras party here?” And so we said, “Let’s do that, let’s see if we can come up,” and I said “OK.” It’s not till March 3rd, I think that Mardi Gras was late, and I said, “Why don’t we have a party and raise some money?” And this was when AIDS was finally becoming, or hitting Tuscaloosa, and we knew it was hitting the big cities, but we really didn’t know anyone that had it. We were getting to know some people in Tuscaloosa that were having it and everything, and we said “I wonder if we could raise some money to give to people who have AIDS.” We didn’t know of West Alabama AIDS Outreach. One of the guys in our group researched and found out that there was a group called West Alabama AIDS Outreach. And it was housed in the Covenant - no, not Covenant, the Presbyterian Church right here, Canterbury - and so, he went and spoke to them and asked to do this. They said, “Yes, okay,” so we said, “Okay, we’re going to do it; it's going to be a fundraiser, and we're going to give it to the AIDS outreach.” Well, the owner of Michael’s - and I don’t know if I wanna say this on the recording - but anyway, there was some fundraising to help arrange housing for people that were suffering, and all the money wasn’t going there, so we got worried about that. We wanted that integrity, and so I said “They got to know where this money is going and see it,” so we called West Alabama AIDS Outreach, and they came there that night, and of course, most of it was in cash anyway, and if it wasn’t, we covered it, and we gave them and presented them the money that night in front of everybody that had paid to come, so they knew exactly where the money was and how much it was. And so, that’s always been our goal with the Krewe, and we will be celebrating 30 years next year. We would’ve celebrated it this year, except for Covid, we didn’t have one. So we’ve been in existence 30 years almost 31, but we will celebrate our 30th ball next year. And, we’ve been giving over $50,000 in the past five or six years, but we’ve always given in the 40s before that, so it cost us a lot to put it on. A lot of people criticize us for that, but it’s a wonderful celebration. Everybody has a great time, and we raise a lot more money than in the case where we just went out and asked for a check; we wouldn’t raise as much.

ED: Yeah, that’s amazing that you are able to give so much. What do you think is the most rewarding part about what you do?

RT: Well, it’s what we receive and seeing what the money does. Now, WAAO, well, Five Horizons has gotten so big. Yes, they still need the money, but you don’t see the effect of it as much, so we’ve started asking for different projects, so when we raise the money this year, it will say this is going to the housing project at Five Horizons. So we know that we are working on the houses to make sure that they are up-to-date and stuff, but that’s what’s rewarding, is seeing the work and getting the “thank you‘s.”

ED: So, what was your - beyond the Krewe - what was your involvement with WAAO?

RT: Beyond the Krewe, I became a board member and worked two six-year terms, so that was 12, and then I took a break, and then I went back and worked for two six-year terms. I was president in its younger years when we had two employees, so it was a quite different scene. And, I guess I should go ahead say this at this point because it made me bring it up, but when I was in college and involved with the badge of student union, I’d go on conventions and retreats and things, and at one of those retreats I committed to mission work, or that I wanted to do mission work. And, when the gay thing came out, and I knew that was not gonna happen, they were not going to let a gay person go and do mission work, I was doing some work with United Methodist Church with their youth after I was out, or had been outed, and so, I went with them, and I choreographed their open number. And, the youth group here was in charge of the whole program on the opening night. So, I choreographed a number for them, and we did a serious number, and then we had a big celebration at the end. And, that’s where I saw the quilt for the first time and saw the masses of people going down to write a name of someone they knew, and I said this could be my mission. That’s when I came back and talked to my friends about WAAO and starting this Krewe.

RV: So is that why it was originally called the Quilting Bee?

RT: It was called the Quilting Bee for two years. It was held at a gay bar, and then, straight people did not want to go to a gay bar because then they would be associated with that: “Ooh, they may think that I am gay.” So, we had so many people that wanted to come that felt uncomfortable at a gay bar, that we went public, and we were at the Bryant Conference Center for two years and then we moved to the ballot.

RV: So overall, I know that you talked about this being your mission and everything, so how do you feel to have watched these things that started as a dinner of 12 people, and it’s grown to be this big thing? WAAO, originally, when you started funding it, there wasn't a huge amount of money and now it’s making a huge amount of money. How does it feel to watch this change in your lifetime?

RT: It's always great to know that you’re doing good in the world. I think that’s motivation enough. I don’t receive gifts easily, but I love to give gifts. And, seeing what our effort is accomplishing is great and that’s why in early years, we were keeping it afloat. Our first years, our money went to the relief fund, which meant all our money went to someone in need to pay their light bill, give them food, to pay their rent, that was what our money went for. And then, it got to a point where WAAO was barely surviving. And they’d ask us if we can designate our money to the general fund, because that would help them the most. And so we did, we moved it to that. It was a controversial thing in our group because people were afraid it was going to go to salaries and things and not really help. But, I said, “How can we help if there is no organization?” So, we finally agreed to do that, and it’s been that way ever since. But also, like I said, it’s so big now and its growth is somewhat due to us keeping it afloat all those years. So, not begrudging that they have grown so big, but I think our donors would really love to see something that this money has gone towards, whether it’s a new van. So, we’ve asked them to come up with little projects that would help them get over the top to make it happen. I think that those are the changes that went from paying a light bill to now paying for a van for them. And from going our first ball raising $2,000, and our second one raised $3,000, I think maybe $4,000, and it’s just gone up from that. And, the ball for the last 10 years has been over $40,000, so that’s a lot of money.

RV: It's amazing. So, I was just wondering because I know you’ve had a say in a lot of the themes, and I was just wondering what year was your favorite theme, if you had to pick one?

RT: Ooo. I really liked Big Boots, Big Buckles. It was a Western theme, and I was co-captain of that because I had seen a ball in Birmingham where it was the Wild Wild West, and it was just so much fun, so I waited a couple of years so it wouldn’t be just copying them. And we kind of did the same thing. Of course, ours was totally different than theirs. Theirs was more presentation and big huge costume with feathers, and ours was more of a performance. Our anniversary balls are special. I hope to be captain next year of our 30th, for 30 years it’s time for me to take a step back. I think it’s hard when you see something that you helped begin, and you see that people aren’t stepping up to the plate and being working members. We’ve gotten a little lazy a little bit, so that’s why I stepped back in to do 30 again, and it just depends on how you set the temperature, and I’m still maritime involved. I can still come to meetings. I’m just not required to do anything, but I can come to anything I want and just pave my way. But, I guess, I’m trying to think. Well, disco was one of my favorites because I was captain of that, and I love disco music. I grew up in the 70s.

RV: So can you describe as a captain what you do for the ball?

RT: It is your total responsibility. From the theme - we bring the theme to a vote, but you present it. We used to have several different themes, and then the Krewe would choose the top three, and the captain would choose from those three, but it’s gotten to where you’re not gonna put your heart in it if it’s not something you don’t want to do. So, we let them choose it, but you choose the theme, you pick your lieutenants that help you put on the ball, you help oversee the fundraising, even though the vice president is responsible for the fundraising, but you closely work with him to make sure you are raising the money to pay for the ball. The costumes, you put out what you would like them to be, they can choose from that, but most of the time people say, “I want to do something different,” so, you kind of help them make their costume work in the theme, and then you work with the Bama, you work with the catering, [you work with] the lighting person, you work with the staging person. It’s your responsibility that it comes off at night.

ED: Do you see a difference in building the design for a ball versus when you’re doing your interior designing work, like the source of inspiration?

RT: It's kind of like the same thing. You just have an idea and execute it. And, my involvement in the theater has helped a lot. It’s just like planning a dinner for the president. Sometimes he wants a theme, and so we’ll come up with a theme, and then, it’s executing it just like a ball. It all happens, and then it’s all over, and you clean up and you go home.

RV: So, I know that you talked about how it feels like you have a lot of responsibility, from rejoining WAAO to being the spokesperson, so, what kind of advice would you give to somebody who were to assume that position? Because you mentioned also how you feel unsatisfied with the current members and laziness, what kind of advice would you give to them?

RT: Keep it close to your heart. If you are passionate about it, you will make it happen. So many of our members and so many gay people today never knew anyone who died of AIDS. Never knew the complexity of living with it, knowing a one night stand can be your death. Yes, we are getting close, and yes, we have the meds to help you before you have sex to keep from getting it. But if you keep the heart of the mission close, then you will do the right thing, and you will work harder. And nothing against my members - they're great guys and women - we have straight people in our Krewe now. And a lot of more women. I was talking about myself too, as getting lazy. We got used to raising all this money and that we didn’t have to do all this planning. We knew we had to have a new runway, so we had to put back. Each year, we still gave over $50,000, but any other profit, we keep back, because if we do, we’re going to have to buy a $20,000 runway. And so, we have that in a fund ready to buy a new runway, which is probably going to happen (just redid the Bama). We're going to make this one work this year, but we’re ordering a new one because it hits in different places now where the seasons have changed. So, we've had that little cushion for so many years that we could get into it if we needed to and say, “Oh, well, we didn't do a fundraiser this quarter.” That's the laziest I'm talking about, not in their actual work, they always come and pull through. And we all do our part to be in costume and all that, I guess I was talking about how we just gotten lazy, having a little cushion. And now, that cushion is almost not there. And so we gotta get back into a fundraising group again. But, I think if all of them - when I was president years ago, and we haven't done this a long time, because mainly because of the growth of WAAO, I would bring in a client or a friend. Or, somebody in the Krewe would tell them that they were HIV status. And no one knew. And so, it just makes it hit home.

RV: So living through that, do you think that the AIDS crisis has been very transformative for older gay people versus younger gay people? Do you see a large difference because of that? And, how now you have prep and stuff.

RT: I do. You know, of course, we all saw the pandemic, imagine that, but just on gays. They were about the same thing with the monkeypox. It’s just that it’s just a gay disease, but, we had never seen anything like it, and it was just killing gay people. And then you were condemned, and you didn't want anybody to know, and they would come at you with suits on, and wouldn't touch you. You couldn't feel any love except through eyes, you couldn't touch anybody. And it was hard to get people to know that. So you had to go through that. And of course, you were scared for your own safety. You know, it just amazes me how many of my friends survived. Because I'm just gonna be honest, I mean, back in the 70s, and 80s, we'd go pick up somebody, and then go back and pick up somebody else. It was just free love, you could do anything you wanted, and not worry about anything. And then all of a sudden, it hits bam, you don't know it, then you don't know how far back it goes. So did I in the past, have someone that didn't know they had it? Stuff like that. And so, you were constantly in fear, and constantly that way, feeling that way. But, I think that built us stronger. You know, to make sure this is somebody you want to be with. I think it helped with relationships because you had to make a commitment. And yeah, some of the fun was taken out, but you still have fun and be safe. But yes, I do think it changed the world. I think that's why I was critical of the young guys dancing and being flamboyant in school because we lived through that where we didn’t want anyone to know and all that. And, I'm very proud of where we are today and couldn't be prouder. And hopefully, some of what I have done has helped with that a little bit.

ED: I know there was a lot of, obviously, there was a lot of shame and hiding it. And obviously, when you need to see healthcare professionals in that situation, that can be really, really tricky to balance those things. So, how did you help people navigate those relationships, and balancing that fear, but also needing to receive help and care?

RT: But you hit it with the word “shame.” We were ashamed. I was ashamed when I was forced out, I was ashamed. I couldn't look at anybody. I didn't want anybody to see me, because they all knew the story. It was embarrassing, and then, if you had AIDS or HIV, there was that shame where you were scared to tell anybody; it was hard to find health care. And, most people went to Birmingham because they didn't want anybody here to know about it. It still happens to this day. It's nobody’s business, but it's hard to find a healthcare person that really is okay with it. I mean, they’re supposed to be okay with it, and they will treat you, but if they’re not sensitive to that, then it's hard for you to work with them. So, most people go, there’s very few gay-friendly doctors in Tuscaloosa, so most of the gay people that I know go to Birmingham. I don't have a general care doctor, because I go to a health clinic for anything that I have. Because I've never felt comfortable going to one, I want to go to somebody that I can talk plain with, and I just never found that person, fortunately - knock on wood - I've been very healthy, and I haven’t had the need. My partner just had leg surgery and foot surgery. And, it got to an emergency status, so I had to go to DCH. The guy that died recently, and it's caused the big ruckus, was one of my best friends. And so I didn't want to take him there because my friend just got killed there because they didn't take care of him. But, I had to because it was an emergency situation, and they were great, and we got through that, but then when I had his foot surgery, I went to Birmingham because we could take the time, and we’d planned it. So, it's hard in a medical sense still. Other people may not say that, but I knew Nick, looking at him and his partner, were looking for a general care doctor for both of them. They're planning to get married in March, and all this stuff. And, it's been hard for them to find someone who's taking on new patients and taking on gay patients. And, it's hard for them, they found somebody, they're not really pleased with them, but they at least have somebody.

ED: So do you think that - I know you've mentioned sort of throughout this conversation that like people just don't talk about it, like, there's just sort of silence. Do you think that that is maybe more prevalent in the medical field? Or, just is it still in a lot of spaces?

RT: Well I just know, yeah, maybe, but I think it's more than it used to be. People can talk more about it now. The doctors in Birmingham were great to Rick and I, and of course, we have the agreement - we’re not married - but we have the agreement Power of Attorney for each other, and so, I was able to sit in on all the diagnosis because I know that Rick wasn't gonna tell me the truth, and I have to make sure that he's doing what he needs to do and stuff like that. So, I think it's easier to talk about it now. I do think it's easier. I don't think everybody talks about it. But, I think it's easier, a lot easier.

RV: So do you feel like, I know you mentioned a lot of people here, healthcare practitioners, are not welcoming. Do you think that there's any way that in general, Alabama's healthcare can become more progressive and improved to become more inclusive? Or, do you think it's just you need to go to Birmingham or just wait it out…?

RT: I would hope for a better health care system here in Tuscaloosa that was more gay-friendly.I think Alabama as a whole has the problem, not just Tuscaloosa. And even in Birmingham, it's just there's more people in Birmingham that's attuned to the community and knows what's needed. But, I think Alabama has a problem. And, I don't get into politics, but I just think Alabama has a problem. And, probably Mississippi, and probably Georgia, but I think Georgia may be a little more open because of the big city there that is so open. But, right in that big city is that one county that is so closed it's ridiculous. But, yes, I would hope for a better healthcare system and a freer healthcare system in Tuscaloosa that we wouldn't have to come to Birmingham. And, I just try to keep a positive outlook for it. But, I don't think it's a Tuscaloosa problem. I think it's in Alabama.

(1:11:19)
ED: So do you have any advice for sort of future generations of gay children?

RT: Well, stay true to yourself, I always said come out at your time, not when someone else wants you to. It's just, I think, coming out is not as big of a deal now because of the lifestyles as it was once, but people would say “I can’t believe he won't come out!” And I would say, “He's gotta come out on his own time, or it's gonna be trauma,” because I lived it. Yes, I should have already come out, but I never talked to my parents about it. Unfortunately, it was after my father's death that I found out how supportive he was with me through a nephew. But yeah, he always wanted to be a part of my life, but he didn't know how. And, I wanted him to be a part of my life, but I didn't know how. Not that we were estranged, or anything, but it felt like I was having to live a life outside of the family, and I think he worried about that, and because of AIDS he worried about that. And because that, again, when all that happened in the middle of the AIDS crisis, who wasn’t worried about that? Just like a parent would worry about their son. So, my advice is just try to stay true to yourself. And, I think this is how people come along. I’m not one who likes to stir the pot; I’m not a big activist, but I support gay life and gay lifestyles, and I don’t get out there with the signs. I try to do it with my lifestyle, and people see that I’m gay, but I fit in, and I’m successful, and I have great friends and I’m supportive. I have carried a sign and done that, but it's just not my nature of how to handle things.

ED: What kind of advice would you give to your younger self?

RT: Probably, accept yourself a little bit earlier than you did. But, that was hard. That's hard for me to tell my younger self because I lived in it. I was scared to, but for you to know that it'll all come out okay. Just stay true to family. Stay true to loved ones and stay true to yourself. And everything will work out.

ED: Thank you so much. I really appreciated your time this morning. I've learned so much.

Title

Ray Taylor

Date

October 31, 2022

Short Biography

Ray Taylor founded the Mystic Krewe of the Druids and dedicated his life’s mission to supporting West Alabama AIDs Outreach, now Five Horizons. Taylor’s life began in Rural Silas, Alabama, growing up in a musically gifted household, Ray believed he was destined to be a minister of music at the time. However, Ray’s sexuality prompted evolution within religion to where he dedicated his life to a new mission: AIDS. Through his childhood and adult life, Ray holds strong family values and is especially close with his younger sister, Cindy. He holds their memories close and recounts personal anecdotes fondly. Ray’s friends encompass a vast variety of individuals, he describes himself as shy and to the point but could probably make friends wherever he went. Through his life art serves as a grounding point for Ray, from his work in his family’s musical group to his theater experience, the arts consistently provide Ray with a safe space to express himself, in his own words when he’s up on stage “it’s not Ray anymore.” Through travel, Ray finds another sense of expression and belonging. He especially enjoys traveling to New Orleans and exemplifying the points of inspiration in his travel, chose the Mystic Krewe of the Druid’s masquerade ball as a transference of this happiness. The Krewe originated as a progressive dinner with twelve of Ray’s closest friends. Ray’s openness about his sexuality enabled him to act as a group spokesperson for the other members who were not all out yet. His legacy continues as every year the Mystic Krewe of the Druids holds their masquerade ball to raise money for Five Horizon’s projects. In his later life, Ray hopes to retire and move to Florida to be close to his sister Cindy.

Topics referenced in the history

The Mystic Krewe of the Druids, West Alabama AIDS Outreach, Five Horizons, AIDS crisis, Bal Masque

Creator

Ray Taylor

Contributor

Elena Dixon, Rachel Venglarik, Sasha Epps, Grant Meyer, Grace Terry

Transcript

ED: So, to start off with a couple formality questions, what is your name?

RT: Ray Taylor.

ED: Wonderful, and just to introduce all of ourselves so it’s a little bit easier…

GT: My name’s Grace.

ED: I’m Elena, El is also fine.

SE: I’m Sasha.

GM: My name’s Grant.

RV: I’m Rachel.

ED: Where are you from?

RT: I’m originally from Silas, Alabama, which is in Choctaw County, which is a rural county south of here along the Mississippi border above Mobile.

ED: And if you don’t mind me asking, how old are you?

RT: I’m sixty-four.

(1:16)
ED: So, when did you, while you were growing up, start to understand that you were gay?

RT: Well, I guess junior high, maybe even earlier, I knew I was different. All my siblings played [foot]ball. I did not. They tried and I tried, but it just wasn’t my thing, and I’m from a very sports-orientated family, from my mother to my father to all my siblings, which are three sisters and a brother, they were all all-stars. Not just sports but all-star sports, so I knew I was different. I knew I liked to play house, I knew I liked to - me and my sister- tell me if I’m going too detailed…

ED: No, it’s perfect.

RT: I have three older brothers and sisters, and then ten years, and then it was me and a younger sister. So, I really grew up with my younger sister, who is just a year and a half younger than me, so we’re the ones that played together all the time. We were never apart. In fact, people thought that we were twins because we were always the same size. So, back to the original question, I thought I was different, but I did my part. I would go to their games, and I kept score - the official scorekeeper because my father was the coach, and there was a specific way he wanted it, so I had to learn, and I had to do it. So, I had my part, I just didn’t play ball. Then, junior high was when I got interested in other guys and, “Why do I wanna do this?” But also, I don’t know how it is in this day and time, but back then, all guys kinda fooled around, and it was kinda like a phase, and then they’d turn out - half my friends- well, I’d say 95% of my friends turned out to be straight, but they still play[ed] around in junior high. You know what I’m saying? So, I didn’t know that I wasn’t going to be alright later on. I grew up in a very religious family; we sang gospel music all over the south of Alabama, as a family, as a group. So, I knew it was wrong, and at that time I thought it was wrong, so it was very stressful. But, I guess that later (in) highschool, I dreamt of not being gay and that I would eventually marry, have children. I always wanted to have children, and if I was younger, in this day and time, I would adopt. But, I guess college is probably when I realized I was not growing out of this phase.

ED: So, in that period of junior high, was that like twelve, thirteen-ish?

RT: I was a late bloomer, so I would say more like thirteen to fifteen.

ED: So, what were your family dynamics like growing up? I know you said some were a lot older, but….

RT: Yeah, they were fine, me and my sister were really good, close friends, and still are. Well, I mean, the whole family’s close, but we’re a family that doesn't talk about things. It’s best not to talk about them, but we all got along, there were no family rifts, it was a pleasant growing up, no drama or anything, and so I guess that’s fine. They are still very supportive. Now, we never talked about this; some of my siblings, we have never just talked about things. My younger sister, we have. They’re knowing it now, and it’s - that’s another story, how I came out and everything, but it was, as far as family, it was a very loving and supporting, pleasant upbringing, which I think is probably rare, in this day and time. Growing up in the sixties and seventies, you see, I graduated highschool in seventy-six, so my highschool years were early seventies, and that was the crazy time, and the sixties was the flower power… and I had older brothers and sisters, so I remember all the sixties stuff, and all the bands and everything, because my older siblings were playing that. Even though I was five, six, and seven, I remember them playing that music and knowing all about the sixties.

ED: So, what was your sort of perception on gayness when you were growing up?

RT: Well, there wasn’t a perception of gayness, I was a sissy. I was someone who was a sissy, that’s it.

ED: Yeah, can you describe sort of how- well, first of all, I should ask, really- at what point did you sort of start coming out?

RT: I started kinda coming out right after college graduation. I wound up staying here in Tuscaloosa. I interviewed across the southeast for some jobs. My degree’s in interior design, so I knew I wasn’t going back home, because there was no place like that; they’d never even heard of that degree. But, I started with some close friends, and I got involved with the theater. I was in my first play ever in 1981. I got a semi-lead. I just got the fever and I never got rid of it, so with my theater friends, I was a little more open with that. So, I guess I would say right after college.

ED: And so, is that the Bama theater just down the road?

RT: Well, the Bama theater’s a building, but yes, we did perform in the Bama theater.

ED: Okay, gotcha. So, can you describe a little bit about how things changed, like, particularly emotionally, before you came out versus after you came out in that space of time?

RT: Well, I was in a good place. I was kinda having - what is the saying about having your cake and eating it too? I was a minister of music in youth in a Baptist church, but also, I was having a little bit of a gay life too, but it was just quiet. And, I was doing some very good work in that church, and I got to be a friend of a guy that was married, [with] children. And, his uncle told the First Baptist Church Minister of Music that his nephew, who is married and had children, was playing around with a Minister of Music out in Cottondale or Elvert City, and it got into a mess, and I had to resign and, therefore, I was forced out. And then, I wasn’t in a good state of mind at all, and I hibernated for a year. I didn’t go out anywhere; I had one little outlet of a choral group that I would go to those rehearsals and come home, and that was it. Maybe a few of my friends that I was close to would come over to my apartment or something like that. I was very close to a nervous breakdown. My parents realized something was wrong. I think they figured it out, but we never talked about it.

ED: Did you feel as though art and performance and that sort of thing was a continuous safe space throughout your life?

RT: Yes, yes.

(9:20)
ED: So, I know you mentioned that you grew up in a very religious household, can you talk a little bit more about that, like what that was like?

RT: Well, everybody thought I was going to be a minister of music. Music came very easily to my family; we’re all very musically talented, playing and singing, so my three older siblings became a trio, the Taylor Trio, and then when Cindy and I came along, we became the Taylor Family. And then, eventually, the older ones got married, had children, and couldn’t come to everything, and then it became just Ray and Cindy. My father was very supportive of religion, and he was a religious person, but he didn’t go to church with us as much. But, my mother, every time the door was open, we were there and supportive. It was a small church, so we did our part. I led the music from probably thirteen until I left for college in the church. It wasn’t a bad thing. I'm still basically religious, but being forced out like it is, I believe in God. It took me a while, but I finally came to the realization that God made me the way I am; I didn’t choose it. So, it took a while to get to that stage, but I think that was part of my problem when I was forced out. Now, I don’t feel comfortable in church anymore, and it’s been thirty years - or forty - so, I’m still not comfortable in church. I’ve tried going back, some of the freer churches like the Bridge, the United Methodist, and stuff is really good now. I go to a church once a month called the Tavern, which usually meets in a bar, and we sit there and we just discuss being good people, and how God is good and The Bible, we talk about good things, not bad. I’m still religious, I just don’t do it formally.

ED: Yeah, that was really interesting when you were saying shift over time between being made a certain way rather than choosing it. Can you talk a little bit more about that?

RT: Well, I just thought I was doing wrong, because with religion, homosexuality was wrong. I would - I don’t know if this is recorded if I should say that. There were certain things that I would refrain from doing because I felt that was bad, and I never did look to do anything with anyone else for a while because I’d punish myself. I’d say I can’t do this for a month. I can’t do this for six weeks. Trying to grasp where I needed to be, I was going in the wrong way - going in the wrong way. And then, like I said, even though I was little bit more free, working in that church, I had gotten young kids, I didn’t force religion on them, but I led them in bible studies, which I taught good things, but then they became good people and they wanted to come to church, and they wanted to be around other good kids. I know one was very on the borderline of being in a bad group, but she would always come, and we became very good friends, as well as mentors, and the week before I left, I had taken them on a mission trip. And that church, they had never been on a mission trip, and they all sang without books, and they had never sung without books and did a whole concert. You know, so I was doing good things, I just couldn’t understand why I could not do both. And that’s why it was so hard on me when I was pushed out.

ED: Yeah, so, uh, going back, but what denomination?

RT: Southern Baptist.

ED: Baptist. What sort of relationships did you see between those close to you and religion?

RT: Now repeat that?

ED: What relationships did you see between people close to you, like, in your family or friends and religion? How do you think they sort of impacted your view of those people or religion as you were growing up?

RT: I never disliked anyone because of the religious part. I understood - family and religious friends… We all got along great, and even after me coming out, the majority of my friends were still friends, and they knew how I was growing up. As far as religious people, that maybe were shocked or probably knew, when it finally came down to being spoken, I would say probably 75-80% of them were fine with it and continued - maybe they weren’t fine with it, I’m just saying they supported me. They did not hate me. When they saw me they’d all ask “How’s everything going?” and stuff like that. I would say that's a positive. You know I’ve rarely had any major ugliness. This may be shooting a little bit forward, but the guy that I was friends with that was married and had a child, we wound up together, and he left his wife and kids, and we were in business together. We had a flower shop. And when the people, the churches that we did church arrangements for every week (they brought business into the business because of their relationship through the churches) were very upset and would come in and literally cuss us out and say, “I'll never do business with you again.” And so the business suffered for a while. But we got through that, and, and then became the token gay couple that all high society wanted to know and be. And so we became the flower shop and the wedding people to go to. And we rode on that for several years.

ED: So I'm just making sure I have that timeline right. So you opened the flower shop with your partner and then…

RT: Well, he already had it. It was established.

ED: Okay, gotcha, gotcha.

RT: I had just moved in.

ED: Okay. What was the name of the flower shop?

RT: Azalea Garden.

ED: Oh, lovely.

RT: And I'm looking for some pictures of the front of it. They asked for that, and I even called some friends, so we were looking for a picture of it from the outside.

ED: Mm-hmm. And is it, is it, has it closed down or…?

RT: Yeah. He closed it down not too long after I left. I stayed when he left me for a younger person. I stayed with him for a little bit, but I just couldn't move for about a couple of years. And then I moved out and started my own business, and then he kept it for a little while, and then it got to… that was when the grocery stores were having flowers. It became, there wasn't a need to have a storefront anymore, so he did it out of his home for the last probably 15 years of his business. And he just passed away last year, the year of this December.

ED: What was the business that you opened?

RT: Um, well I have a degree in interior design, so I opened R. Taylor Designs. So I did interior design.

ED: That's lovely. Is that still going?

RT: It's still going, but just on the back burner. I don't have to do it, but I still enjoy doing it. But I do a lot here at the UA. I'm manager of the mansion, so I make sure it looks nice all the time, upgrades and things. And right now, I'm on the committee for the university club remodel. I helped a little bit with the Bryce House, when they would… the board would call and say, “Hey, will you go look at this? We're not sure about it.” Things like that. And privately I do, I still have probably five clients I've had over the years that anytime they want something new they come to me.

ED: That's lovely. Where are your main sources of inspiration when you're designing those kinds of things?

RT: Um, nowadays, it's not much, but I used to be a buyer for two businesses as well. And so, when you go to market, I would go to Atlanta Market three times a year, and you're seeing what's new and what's coming, or, what's coming down the track. And so you just look ahead. Magazines are a great source because they know what's coming down the track. I mean the color, the color wheel, the, the pantone color, that's the color of the year. They're picked three years out. I mean, that's how far out the design world is before it gets to you. So, when I would go to New York Market, just walking down the street and looking at what's coming, it takes it about three years to get to Tuscaloosa from New York. But, what's coming down you can get, and be a little bit ahead of the game and know what's coming. So, I guess just going and traveling and going to the high markets was my inspiration. Nowadays, It could be anything, depending on what I do. If I'm doing flowers for a wedding - this past weekend she loved eucalyptus, so I had to/I knew I had to work around eucalyptus. So, how was the best way I could make her happy with eucalyptus? So, it depends on the specific event, I think.

(19:14)
ED: That's so delightful. Um, so shifting gears a bit to talking a bit more about your family…

RT: Mm-hmm.

ED: Um, how has the meaning of the word family changed as you've grown up?

RT: I guess because I'm single and I don't have kids, I think family moves onto the next generation. And so now, all my siblings are more about their family than what was ours. Now, we all still love each other, but we're the second tier where we used to be the first tier.

ED: Mm-hmm.

RT: Does that make sense? That's, that's how, I guess I feel family. I mean, I still am very very close to my family, but I never see them - very rarely. You know, maybe twice a year that we all get together. And unfortunately, it's been at sad events, like when someone passes away, or we try to have at least one Christmas celebration together because that meant a lot to my parents who are gone now. And, my younger sister, I keep up with a little bit more than my others because I'm kind of planning my retirement to be near her. So, because if nature happens correctly, it'll be she and I, the last ones. And so, I kind of want to, since I don't have any other family, would like to be near her.

ED: So where is near her?

RT: Where's her, where is she?

ED: Yeah. Like where?

RT: She's in Gulf Shores.

ED: Okay.

RT: She's the principal of Gulf Shores High School.

ED: So is all of… are all of your siblings sort of spread out across Alabama?

RT: Yes. Now, both my sisters are retired. One of them lives in Silas, lived there most of her life. My other sister lived here in Tuscaloosa in different places. She's back in Silas right now, but she's back and forth with being with her daughter in Nashville, or her son in north Alabama. And then… now we're all there. My brother lived in California for a while, but he passed away last year, as well. So, his family though, his sons, one of them lives here, and one of them lives in Silas. And then, I have a niece in California.

ED: Are you close with your nieces and nephews?

RT: Very close.

ED: Mm-hmm.

RT: They surprised me. One time, for my 50th birthday, my niece that lived nearby at the time said, “Ray, I wanna take you out, Uncle Ray. I wanna take you out for dinner.” So she planned it, and I was just complaining. I said, “I don't really have time.” And I said, “So it's gonna have to be late. I'm busy up until eight o'clock so we can't eat till eight.” “That's fine. It's fine.” And, I get there, and it's all my nieces and nephews and no siblings. No, it was only my nieces and nephews and me. So…

ED: That's delightful. Um…

RT: I have 12.

ED: So, what people in your life would you consider to be your family? So, even beyond your siblings and your nieces and nephews?

RT: Hmm. I have lots, lots. Some deceased, some still around. I had a mentor named Noah Wright that was like family. My ex-partner was a “family” that passed away. I view his kids as my family. I helped raise them a little bit, because they were 13 and 5, or 12 and 5 I think when he divorced. Um, I have lots of best friends. Greg Howard, somebody I knew for years, he still lives in town. We've grown a little bit apart. It is funny how friends come and go in your life but they're still there. And some, you can just pick right up with, and some you can't. So, gosh, I could think of hundreds of names I consider family.

ED: So how have those people sort of played a role and helped shape who you are and how you view yourself?

(23:24)
RT: Well, people like Noah when I was younger, I think they help as a mentor. I learned how he did things, and he would shape me. Like, “You need to do this and, and you can do that.” They helped raise me. I guess I should say if there were a gay mentor; he was not because he wasn't. But, I'm trying to think if there were any kind of gay mentors that I looked up to and respected. I think I just grew up with friends that kind of were gay too, and kind of raised each other and learned about each other. Beause, when I was in my twenties, it was a fun thing to be gay, so you really didn't wear the gay flag on your back. You just kind of tried to blend in, until it became an issue. And then, I was forced out, and then all my Krewe members, you know I started the Krewe, I'm sure y'all read about that. So, we were 12 people that kind of just…wanted to do something, first of all to make a difference. But nobody could speak to the public, but I could because I was outed and everybody knew I was gay, so I would speak for the group, and that became important in years later. But now, that's not an issue anymore. And of course, we had the gay bar to go to and, but that's straying from your question. I guess they helped shape me to who - well, all circumstances shape you to who you are - but they did have a lot to do with it.

ED: How was that? Being the person that could really talk about things because you were out?

RT: It made me a stronger person because I had to do it, and I was a little uncomfortable. And sometimes yes, we didn't know if we were gonna get protested because I was putting it in the paper and talking about this fundraiser, or if we were gonna have a protest at the Alabama Theater, or we were gonna have people come and buy a ticket. And fortunately, we've never had a protestor, and we have probably a 50% straight crowd coming to our ball.

ED: That's amazing. Um, so I know that you attended the University of Alabama…

RT: I did. Mm-hmm.

ED: Yeah. So, what kinds of people did you sort of tend to surround yourself with while you were here?

RT: Well, religious people, because I was very shy. Um, my parents didn't think I was gonna make it. They thought they were gonna have to bring me back to a smaller college, but this is where I wanted to go, and they made that happen. The first year, I lived with my sister who lived here, so I was not really on campus. I would come to classes, and I would go home off campus, and I would [go to] the Baptist Student Union then called, Baptist Campus Ministries now because they had a choir. My sister was in the BSU choir at Livingston, and she said, “You should look into the choir.” So I did. So I became a member of that choir, and I would come sing on Thursday nights and rehearse, and then go away. And so, I never saw those people other than that rehearsal. I never went out anywhere. I'd come to class and home, and then I would go home almost every weekend, which was about two and a half hours then, now it's two hours. It was just different roads you had to go. Didn’t have interstates. It was the Baptist Student Union and then, after the end of my freshman year, they went on a choir tour, and I was scared to go because I really didn't know any of 'em. But I wanted to go. So I went, and that's how I became friends with the people in the choir. And then, the next year, we became friends, and we would go out to eat, and I would just go down there and hang out and a little bit of my shyness was coming out.

(27:42)
RT: I'm still very shy and people don't believe it, but it's just hard, especially with as much as I've done on stage. But you're someone else then, and you're not Ray, and it's very hard for me now to look people in the eyes until I get to know them very well, and I'm usually not the first to speak…

ED: Mm-hmm.

RT: And a lot of people think that's haughtiness or snobby. But it's just a fact of life for me. I want to know someone wants to talk to me before I talk to them.

ED: Mm-hmm. Yeah…

RT: I would never call anybody. It was very rare. I wanted people to call me because I was afraid I was invading something that they really didn't wanna talk to me at that time.

ED: Mm-hmm.

RT: That was very stressful for me.

ED: That's exactly how I feel about calling people. Um, so you mentioned that when you were, when you traveled with your choir…

RT: Mm-hmm.

ED: …and that traveling when you're working on your design really sort of helps, like, the creative juices. So, do you feel like you have a special connection to travel and sort of growth within that?

RT: I do because I don't mind traveling by myself, and a lot of people would. I think that probably goes back to my shyness, I just give 'em my little world, and then therefore I can do exactly what I want to do. And, people would still criticize me for going to the same places all the time. I said, “Why would I wanna go somewhere else when I love going there?” You know, I learn something new every time. I love New Orleans; I go there two or three times a year. I used to go to Atlanta a lot. I'm not into Atlanta as much anymore, but, I don't go to New York as often as I want to, but I try to go every two to three years and catch up on plays, so I just go and see about six plays in a long weekend and come home, and I've got my fill.

ED: Mm-hmm.

RT: I've traveled. I've never traveled abroad alone. The first time I went abroad, I traveled alone, but I met some people…

ED: Mm-hmm.

RT: …already there. And so I don't know if I would do that. And some destinations, I might not go by myself, but I have no problem eating in a restaurant by myself. I have no problem being by myself anywhere.

ED: Mm-hmm.

RT: But yes, I do love to travel.

ED: Do you think that there’s *coughs* excuse me, allergies. I know you mentioned when you’re on stage it’s like it’s not really Ray anymore. Do you feel like there's a separation when you’re traveling somewhere else between being in your home base?

RT: Probably, I would have never thought of it, but it probably does because no one knows who I am, and I can be what I want to be.

ED: So, is there a level of comfort that's different in places that aren’t Alabama?

RT: Yeah, Especially if I'm going somewhere that’s highly gay-oriented. I've never wanted to live in an all-gay world because I feel like it takes all of us to make a world, and I enjoy everybody. And I have some - I used to have a friend that would get mad and he says, “Ray you have too many friends, that's not fair that you have - if you have work friends, you have gay friends, you have straight friends, you have married friends, you have children that are your friends. It’s not fair enough,” and I said well, you know, but it’s true, I just. . . I have friends, and my father said, “your integrity makes you who you are.” So, I’ve always tried to do exactly what I said I would do, and because of him, I think it’s gotten me a long way in this world.

ED: That's lovely. Your integrity makes you who you are. Is there… Are there any other things that your parents used to say that…?

RT: “Never be idle.” Always. If it’s just grabbing a broom and sweeping the floor, I'm never idle, very rarely, except when I'm at my desk or something like this. I'm walking, I'm checking things at home. When I get home, we fix dinner. If we sit down to watch something, I'm asleep. So it's just like, I go and go and go until I go to sleep. Then, I get up and I go and go and go and go to sleep. I’m getting slower, but I'm still going. People, just walking with them, will say, “Ray you need to slow down.” That's how I do things fast.

ED: That makes sense. That’s delightful, “never be idle.” I'm gonna remember these. So I guess sort of in connection with traveling and feeling more comfortable in certain spaces, were there any spaces that you grew up in that you felt particularly safe or at home? And it may have been because it was more gay friendly, but you didn't quite know why yet at the time when you were growing up?

RT: Well, it was very rare for me to go so far that I felt uncomfortable because of being called a sissy. I would go to sporting events with my family. So, sometimes the older kids would heckle me and make fun of me and things like that. But my home, my church, my friends, we all... I was always pretty comfortable. As long as I was with someone, I didn't get awkward when people yelled and screamed at me, even in high school, and that's why I say I think everybody knew. We just were blind. We just didn’t talk about it. So, my sister was, my younger sister was a cheerleader, and she was everything, but younger than me, so she was never in the same thing. So, when a coach that I had… [I] was very shy because if he looked at me, I would just melt because he was this coach, and he was good looking and everything, and I would just cringe. He knew that, and he would play on it. And of course, he and my sister and her husband, they were friends socially. So, he always knew my business, and he would embarrass me like “Ray, why didn’t you call me to have fried chicken at your house last night.” And then, I would just cringe and I couldn't even speak to him. You know, he'd just do this in class in front of everybody. So anyway, he came to me, it was going into my senior year, by the end of my junior year, he says “Ray, I want you to run - I want you to be a cheerleader.” And I said “I-I don't know,” he says “Why?” Because I was always the pep person in the stands that was keeping it going and, and cheering with the cheerleaders and... So, I thought about it. Listen, I'd really like to do that. But I felt like I needed to get permission. So, I went to my mom and she said, “Well,you know you gotta ask your dad.” So, I just said “Dad, I really want to be a cheerleader. Coach Johnson asked me to be one. And I didn't know what you thought about it.” And he said, because again, we didn't talk about things. He said, “Well, it will be right up your alley, if you want to do it.” So I did it, and yes, there were some awkward moments, and there was some ridicule. And at one away game, the whole crowd from the other team were heckling me. So, I left the field and went out in the parking lot. My family came out there and said, “Mm-mm, get right back out there,” and said, “You signed up for this. You can do it.” And I ran back on the field and of course, my team and my side, yelled and screamed at me to give me some confidence, and so, there's been some safe places that were safe, and then they’d get not, and they’d get scary, and then they’d get back safe again. So I think it's just a mixture of emotions.

(35:50)
ED: Yeah, so what public spaces, especially in Tuscaloosa, but really anywhere I mean I know that you travel as well and what public spaces feel safe to you or felt safe to you?

RT: When? Then or now?

ED: Then… and then also now.

RT: Well, back, during the college days, I didn't go out a lot, but I mean I'm gonna go to the grocery store and not feel uncomfortable then, but if I went in where it was mainly men or sports or things like that I was… I was on guard that somebody was gonna ridicule me or say something about how I was dressed or something like that. Back when I finally started going out to like Michael's, to the bar, that was when Wayne and I were together already, so we already had a circle of friends and then, going out but I got used to it. I never went… I would feel uncomfortable if I went into a straight bar. Because I didn't know what they were gonna say… “why are you in here” and stuff like that. But no, after Michael's closed, we kinda before we could get another... We had to force ourselves into some little places and most of them were accepting and no problem whatsoever, and then we had one little incident at Catch 22, but now all that’s over and we're all friends again and stuff like that and so we feel more comfortable, I do, in any of the bars. I'm not going to Coppertop on a ball game day because they would say, “look this is our bar, what are you doing here?” But I know that that bar would probably… they would probably not say anything about me coming in there. But, I will get some looks. But, just like I go to Houndstooth on game day, that doesn’t bother me; Egan's, because Egan’s was kind of just kind of edgy anyways. But maybe Coppertop is the only one I would really feel uncomfortable going in right now, and I don't know why. But, there was a shooting in there. There were, I think, other issues that may tend to be there, but we used to go there and watch the games all the time, and I never felt uncomfortable, but I guess nowadays I kind of feel uncomfortable there, but I go everywhere else. I go to Session and all that, I’m almost a founding member of Session. But he - the guy who owns Session - used to work in Catch 22 when we were younger, and we used to go into Catch 22, so I’ve kept up with him over the years when he moved around. So, I don't feel really uncomfortable going really anywhere right now. It will be very rare and it may be the situation, not the place.

ED: So I know you mentioned Michaels, what did that mean to you? What position did that hold?

RT: Well to be perfectly honest, when it first started, I wouldn't go, because he owed our flower shop a lot of money. Not the guy who owned it, but his parents put the money in it. His parents were good people, and he's a good person. But he owed us a lot of money. And, I was going “Why am I supporting him? He owes us.” Well, he finally got us to come, and we never had to pay for anything. So, that's how I got our money back. Through the years, back then, gays weren't known to hold a job. You know, they were flighty, they were just for fun. They really didn't take life seriously. And, I did not want to be one of those people, I wanted to support myself. I wanted to pay my bills. I wanted to be a citizen and a rounded person. And so, I was hesitant to go down there when he did that. But, we all became good friends and we went there all the time then, and even through all the owners, we were very close to all the owners because they knew us, and so, when the new ones came in, they depended on us to help them make sure it was doing things. You know, all of them came in and did something different, but they didn't want to offend. They didn’t want to offend people, so they said, “Hey, what do we not want to do, that's gonna make people mad or not want to come?” Stuff like that. So we remained close, all the way up to Harpo.

ED: So, when you say “we go into Michael's,” would that be you and your partner?

RT: Yes my partner and Greg. Like I mentioned, it was the three of us for years, and then, it would be multiple groups, maybe not go together but we'd meet: “Hey, let's go to Michael's, we’ll see you down there.” So, we’d all meet there and hang out together. And that's kind of how the 12 got together. It's how we met and became friends when we started the group.

ED: Mm-hmm. Um, were there any other spaces, like bars or bookshops or other businesses?

RT: Well, hold on, the name escapes me right now that was just a walk away… I'm sure you've got it in your notes, but oh gosh, what was the name of that… oh well, it will come to me in a minute. It was one of those… It was kind of a straight bar, but it had like a gay night, and they had that before Michaels opened. And so I would go to – on occasion, they would have a drag show, which was really not anything like what a drag show is today. It was just people dressing up in women's clothes and either singing live or pantomime, but it was not to the scale it is now. It would be like choir robes. I remember sneaking choir robes out of my church so they could wear it while singing the song. I had gone back and I'd go put it back in the church, stuff like that. And then it was just mainly, guys just having fun.

ED: That’s lovely. Um, what private spaces felt safe to you? So like friends' houses or anything like that?

RT: That would be it. You know, each other's houses we’d go to, we felt comfortable in everybody's house. Our house was always a hub, but those 12 friends would go there. We divided the houses up over the year. We met every month. We called it our birthday dinner, and we’d celebrate whoever’s birthday it was that month.

ED: That’s lovely. How have gay spaces changed in West Alabama over your lifetime?

RT: Well, they’ve become later. We used to go out at 7:00 and have a great time and be home by 11:00. Now, you start at 11:00 or 12:00 and get home at 3:00. And, that’s why I don't really go to Icon that much because if I go up on it at 7:00, there’s gonna be nobody there, if it’s even open. I don’t think it opens until 9:00. And I feel guilty about that. But also, I know that's his business, and that's the way he needs to run it. But, I'm not gonna go at 11 o'clock, unless it's a special occasion. And, I don't stay too long when I go then; but, I know he gets upset when we go to happy hour at straight bars. But, we're at the age where we get to happy hour, and then we go eat and go home. We’re not the young kids that want to dance. We were, years ago. They’re a little freer. It just amazes me how the younger kids are out in high school and how they feel comfortable in their skin to dress the way they want to dress and say what they want to say and be as swishy as they want to be because that wasn't anything - like, you didn't want to do that when I was in highschool, and so that it amazes me that they have the freedom. I'm glad they have the freedom, don't get me wrong, but that's some changes that are hard for me to accept. You know, I'm just amazed.

ED: So do you feel as though the focus of spaces for gay people have shifted to just be more towards younger generations?

RT: I do, I do. I think, because for years we wanted to open an adult gay bar that had a piano player playing at 5:00, and it was open to come, and not that young people couldn’t come, but it was for the people that didn’t want to stay out all night, and we were too old to dance the night away, but if they wanted to dance they could. But, we would come and have happy hour and talk and have a little bit of entertainment, and then go home, and still have maintained your jobs the next day. You gotta get up and go to work, you can’t just stay out and do all that.

ED: That sounds like it would be a lovely community and space.

RT: I know, I know, still maybe, but I don’t think that today you need necessarily a gay bar, except for the younger kids who like to dance and everything. Unfortunately, for the straight people who are getting married and wanna have a bachelorette party, that’s about the things the brides always want to go there and do that.

(45:55)
ED: So, I know that you’ve brought up the Krewe a couple times, so what sort of prompted you to get involved with the West Alabama Aids Outreach?

RT: Well, our Group of 12 was at a Christmas party, and we had a progressive dinner, and we had hors d'oeuvre at our house, and then went to another house and had dinner and had dessert, and we were giving out gifts, and we started talking about Mardi Gras coming up, and we’re saying that we should all go to Mardi Gras, and we said, “Why don’t we have a Mardi Gras party here?” And so we said, “Let’s do that, let’s see if we can come up,” and I said “OK.” It’s not till March 3rd, I think that Mardi Gras was late, and I said, “Why don’t we have a party and raise some money?” And this was when AIDS was finally becoming, or hitting Tuscaloosa, and we knew it was hitting the big cities, but we really didn’t know anyone that had it. We were getting to know some people in Tuscaloosa that were having it and everything, and we said “I wonder if we could raise some money to give to people who have AIDS.” We didn’t know of West Alabama AIDS Outreach. One of the guys in our group researched and found out that there was a group called West Alabama AIDS Outreach. And it was housed in the Covenant - no, not Covenant, the Presbyterian Church right here, Canterbury - and so, he went and spoke to them and asked to do this. They said, “Yes, okay,” so we said, “Okay, we’re going to do it; it's going to be a fundraiser, and we're going to give it to the AIDS outreach.” Well, the owner of Michael’s - and I don’t know if I wanna say this on the recording - but anyway, there was some fundraising to help arrange housing for people that were suffering, and all the money wasn’t going there, so we got worried about that. We wanted that integrity, and so I said “They got to know where this money is going and see it,” so we called West Alabama AIDS Outreach, and they came there that night, and of course, most of it was in cash anyway, and if it wasn’t, we covered it, and we gave them and presented them the money that night in front of everybody that had paid to come, so they knew exactly where the money was and how much it was. And so, that’s always been our goal with the Krewe, and we will be celebrating 30 years next year. We would’ve celebrated it this year, except for Covid, we didn’t have one. So we’ve been in existence 30 years almost 31, but we will celebrate our 30th ball next year. And, we’ve been giving over $50,000 in the past five or six years, but we’ve always given in the 40s before that, so it cost us a lot to put it on. A lot of people criticize us for that, but it’s a wonderful celebration. Everybody has a great time, and we raise a lot more money than in the case where we just went out and asked for a check; we wouldn’t raise as much.

ED: Yeah, that’s amazing that you are able to give so much. What do you think is the most rewarding part about what you do?

RT: Well, it’s what we receive and seeing what the money does. Now, WAAO, well, Five Horizons has gotten so big. Yes, they still need the money, but you don’t see the effect of it as much, so we’ve started asking for different projects, so when we raise the money this year, it will say this is going to the housing project at Five Horizons. So we know that we are working on the houses to make sure that they are up-to-date and stuff, but that’s what’s rewarding, is seeing the work and getting the “thank you‘s.”

ED: So, what was your - beyond the Krewe - what was your involvement with WAAO?

RT: Beyond the Krewe, I became a board member and worked two six-year terms, so that was 12, and then I took a break, and then I went back and worked for two six-year terms. I was president in its younger years when we had two employees, so it was a quite different scene. And, I guess I should go ahead say this at this point because it made me bring it up, but when I was in college and involved with the badge of student union, I’d go on conventions and retreats and things, and at one of those retreats I committed to mission work, or that I wanted to do mission work. And, when the gay thing came out, and I knew that was not gonna happen, they were not going to let a gay person go and do mission work, I was doing some work with United Methodist Church with their youth after I was out, or had been outed, and so, I went with them, and I choreographed their open number. And, the youth group here was in charge of the whole program on the opening night. So, I choreographed a number for them, and we did a serious number, and then we had a big celebration at the end. And, that’s where I saw the quilt for the first time and saw the masses of people going down to write a name of someone they knew, and I said this could be my mission. That’s when I came back and talked to my friends about WAAO and starting this Krewe.

RV: So is that why it was originally called the Quilting Bee?

RT: It was called the Quilting Bee for two years. It was held at a gay bar, and then, straight people did not want to go to a gay bar because then they would be associated with that: “Ooh, they may think that I am gay.” So, we had so many people that wanted to come that felt uncomfortable at a gay bar, that we went public, and we were at the Bryant Conference Center for two years and then we moved to the ballot.

RV: So overall, I know that you talked about this being your mission and everything, so how do you feel to have watched these things that started as a dinner of 12 people, and it’s grown to be this big thing? WAAO, originally, when you started funding it, there wasn't a huge amount of money and now it’s making a huge amount of money. How does it feel to watch this change in your lifetime?

RT: It's always great to know that you’re doing good in the world. I think that’s motivation enough. I don’t receive gifts easily, but I love to give gifts. And, seeing what our effort is accomplishing is great and that’s why in early years, we were keeping it afloat. Our first years, our money went to the relief fund, which meant all our money went to someone in need to pay their light bill, give them food, to pay their rent, that was what our money went for. And then, it got to a point where WAAO was barely surviving. And they’d ask us if we can designate our money to the general fund, because that would help them the most. And so we did, we moved it to that. It was a controversial thing in our group because people were afraid it was going to go to salaries and things and not really help. But, I said, “How can we help if there is no organization?” So, we finally agreed to do that, and it’s been that way ever since. But also, like I said, it’s so big now and its growth is somewhat due to us keeping it afloat all those years. So, not begrudging that they have grown so big, but I think our donors would really love to see something that this money has gone towards, whether it’s a new van. So, we’ve asked them to come up with little projects that would help them get over the top to make it happen. I think that those are the changes that went from paying a light bill to now paying for a van for them. And from going our first ball raising $2,000, and our second one raised $3,000, I think maybe $4,000, and it’s just gone up from that. And, the ball for the last 10 years has been over $40,000, so that’s a lot of money.

RV: It's amazing. So, I was just wondering because I know you’ve had a say in a lot of the themes, and I was just wondering what year was your favorite theme, if you had to pick one?

RT: Ooo. I really liked Big Boots, Big Buckles. It was a Western theme, and I was co-captain of that because I had seen a ball in Birmingham where it was the Wild Wild West, and it was just so much fun, so I waited a couple of years so it wouldn’t be just copying them. And we kind of did the same thing. Of course, ours was totally different than theirs. Theirs was more presentation and big huge costume with feathers, and ours was more of a performance. Our anniversary balls are special. I hope to be captain next year of our 30th, for 30 years it’s time for me to take a step back. I think it’s hard when you see something that you helped begin, and you see that people aren’t stepping up to the plate and being working members. We’ve gotten a little lazy a little bit, so that’s why I stepped back in to do 30 again, and it just depends on how you set the temperature, and I’m still maritime involved. I can still come to meetings. I’m just not required to do anything, but I can come to anything I want and just pave my way. But, I guess, I’m trying to think. Well, disco was one of my favorites because I was captain of that, and I love disco music. I grew up in the 70s.

RV: So can you describe as a captain what you do for the ball?

RT: It is your total responsibility. From the theme - we bring the theme to a vote, but you present it. We used to have several different themes, and then the Krewe would choose the top three, and the captain would choose from those three, but it’s gotten to where you’re not gonna put your heart in it if it’s not something you don’t want to do. So, we let them choose it, but you choose the theme, you pick your lieutenants that help you put on the ball, you help oversee the fundraising, even though the vice president is responsible for the fundraising, but you closely work with him to make sure you are raising the money to pay for the ball. The costumes, you put out what you would like them to be, they can choose from that, but most of the time people say, “I want to do something different,” so, you kind of help them make their costume work in the theme, and then you work with the Bama, you work with the catering, [you work with] the lighting person, you work with the staging person. It’s your responsibility that it comes off at night.

ED: Do you see a difference in building the design for a ball versus when you’re doing your interior designing work, like the source of inspiration?

RT: It's kind of like the same thing. You just have an idea and execute it. And, my involvement in the theater has helped a lot. It’s just like planning a dinner for the president. Sometimes he wants a theme, and so we’ll come up with a theme, and then, it’s executing it just like a ball. It all happens, and then it’s all over, and you clean up and you go home.

RV: So, I know that you talked about how it feels like you have a lot of responsibility, from rejoining WAAO to being the spokesperson, so, what kind of advice would you give to somebody who were to assume that position? Because you mentioned also how you feel unsatisfied with the current members and laziness, what kind of advice would you give to them?

RT: Keep it close to your heart. If you are passionate about it, you will make it happen. So many of our members and so many gay people today never knew anyone who died of AIDS. Never knew the complexity of living with it, knowing a one night stand can be your death. Yes, we are getting close, and yes, we have the meds to help you before you have sex to keep from getting it. But if you keep the heart of the mission close, then you will do the right thing, and you will work harder. And nothing against my members - they're great guys and women - we have straight people in our Krewe now. And a lot of more women. I was talking about myself too, as getting lazy. We got used to raising all this money and that we didn’t have to do all this planning. We knew we had to have a new runway, so we had to put back. Each year, we still gave over $50,000, but any other profit, we keep back, because if we do, we’re going to have to buy a $20,000 runway. And so, we have that in a fund ready to buy a new runway, which is probably going to happen (just redid the Bama). We're going to make this one work this year, but we’re ordering a new one because it hits in different places now where the seasons have changed. So, we've had that little cushion for so many years that we could get into it if we needed to and say, “Oh, well, we didn't do a fundraiser this quarter.” That's the laziest I'm talking about, not in their actual work, they always come and pull through. And we all do our part to be in costume and all that, I guess I was talking about how we just gotten lazy, having a little cushion. And now, that cushion is almost not there. And so we gotta get back into a fundraising group again. But, I think if all of them - when I was president years ago, and we haven't done this a long time, because mainly because of the growth of WAAO, I would bring in a client or a friend. Or, somebody in the Krewe would tell them that they were HIV status. And no one knew. And so, it just makes it hit home.

RV: So living through that, do you think that the AIDS crisis has been very transformative for older gay people versus younger gay people? Do you see a large difference because of that? And, how now you have prep and stuff.

RT: I do. You know, of course, we all saw the pandemic, imagine that, but just on gays. They were about the same thing with the monkeypox. It’s just that it’s just a gay disease, but, we had never seen anything like it, and it was just killing gay people. And then you were condemned, and you didn't want anybody to know, and they would come at you with suits on, and wouldn't touch you. You couldn't feel any love except through eyes, you couldn't touch anybody. And it was hard to get people to know that. So you had to go through that. And of course, you were scared for your own safety. You know, it just amazes me how many of my friends survived. Because I'm just gonna be honest, I mean, back in the 70s, and 80s, we'd go pick up somebody, and then go back and pick up somebody else. It was just free love, you could do anything you wanted, and not worry about anything. And then all of a sudden, it hits bam, you don't know it, then you don't know how far back it goes. So did I in the past, have someone that didn't know they had it? Stuff like that. And so, you were constantly in fear, and constantly that way, feeling that way. But, I think that built us stronger. You know, to make sure this is somebody you want to be with. I think it helped with relationships because you had to make a commitment. And yeah, some of the fun was taken out, but you still have fun and be safe. But yes, I do think it changed the world. I think that's why I was critical of the young guys dancing and being flamboyant in school because we lived through that where we didn’t want anyone to know and all that. And, I'm very proud of where we are today and couldn't be prouder. And hopefully, some of what I have done has helped with that a little bit.

ED: I know there was a lot of, obviously, there was a lot of shame and hiding it. And obviously, when you need to see healthcare professionals in that situation, that can be really, really tricky to balance those things. So, how did you help people navigate those relationships, and balancing that fear, but also needing to receive help and care?

RT: But you hit it with the word “shame.” We were ashamed. I was ashamed when I was forced out, I was ashamed. I couldn't look at anybody. I didn't want anybody to see me, because they all knew the story. It was embarrassing, and then, if you had AIDS or HIV, there was that shame where you were scared to tell anybody; it was hard to find health care. And, most people went to Birmingham because they didn't want anybody here to know about it. It still happens to this day. It's nobody’s business, but it's hard to find a healthcare person that really is okay with it. I mean, they’re supposed to be okay with it, and they will treat you, but if they’re not sensitive to that, then it's hard for you to work with them. So, most people go, there’s very few gay-friendly doctors in Tuscaloosa, so most of the gay people that I know go to Birmingham. I don't have a general care doctor, because I go to a health clinic for anything that I have. Because I've never felt comfortable going to one, I want to go to somebody that I can talk plain with, and I just never found that person, fortunately - knock on wood - I've been very healthy, and I haven’t had the need. My partner just had leg surgery and foot surgery. And, it got to an emergency status, so I had to go to DCH. The guy that died recently, and it's caused the big ruckus, was one of my best friends. And so I didn't want to take him there because my friend just got killed there because they didn't take care of him. But, I had to because it was an emergency situation, and they were great, and we got through that, but then when I had his foot surgery, I went to Birmingham because we could take the time, and we’d planned it. So, it's hard in a medical sense still. Other people may not say that, but I knew Nick, looking at him and his partner, were looking for a general care doctor for both of them. They're planning to get married in March, and all this stuff. And, it's been hard for them to find someone who's taking on new patients and taking on gay patients. And, it's hard for them, they found somebody, they're not really pleased with them, but they at least have somebody.

ED: So do you think that - I know you've mentioned sort of throughout this conversation that like people just don't talk about it, like, there's just sort of silence. Do you think that that is maybe more prevalent in the medical field? Or, just is it still in a lot of spaces?

RT: Well I just know, yeah, maybe, but I think it's more than it used to be. People can talk more about it now. The doctors in Birmingham were great to Rick and I, and of course, we have the agreement - we’re not married - but we have the agreement Power of Attorney for each other, and so, I was able to sit in on all the diagnosis because I know that Rick wasn't gonna tell me the truth, and I have to make sure that he's doing what he needs to do and stuff like that. So, I think it's easier to talk about it now. I do think it's easier. I don't think everybody talks about it. But, I think it's easier, a lot easier.

RV: So do you feel like, I know you mentioned a lot of people here, healthcare practitioners, are not welcoming. Do you think that there's any way that in general, Alabama's healthcare can become more progressive and improved to become more inclusive? Or, do you think it's just you need to go to Birmingham or just wait it out…?

RT: I would hope for a better health care system here in Tuscaloosa that was more gay-friendly.I think Alabama as a whole has the problem, not just Tuscaloosa. And even in Birmingham, it's just there's more people in Birmingham that's attuned to the community and knows what's needed. But, I think Alabama has a problem. And, I don't get into politics, but I just think Alabama has a problem. And, probably Mississippi, and probably Georgia, but I think Georgia may be a little more open because of the big city there that is so open. But, right in that big city is that one county that is so closed it's ridiculous. But, yes, I would hope for a better healthcare system and a freer healthcare system in Tuscaloosa that we wouldn't have to come to Birmingham. And, I just try to keep a positive outlook for it. But, I don't think it's a Tuscaloosa problem. I think it's in Alabama.

(1:11:19)
ED: So do you have any advice for sort of future generations of gay children?

RT: Well, stay true to yourself, I always said come out at your time, not when someone else wants you to. It's just, I think, coming out is not as big of a deal now because of the lifestyles as it was once, but people would say “I can’t believe he won't come out!” And I would say, “He's gotta come out on his own time, or it's gonna be trauma,” because I lived it. Yes, I should have already come out, but I never talked to my parents about it. Unfortunately, it was after my father's death that I found out how supportive he was with me through a nephew. But yeah, he always wanted to be a part of my life, but he didn't know how. And, I wanted him to be a part of my life, but I didn't know how. Not that we were estranged, or anything, but it felt like I was having to live a life outside of the family, and I think he worried about that, and because of AIDS he worried about that. And because that, again, when all that happened in the middle of the AIDS crisis, who wasn’t worried about that? Just like a parent would worry about their son. So, my advice is just try to stay true to yourself. And, I think this is how people come along. I’m not one who likes to stir the pot; I’m not a big activist, but I support gay life and gay lifestyles, and I don’t get out there with the signs. I try to do it with my lifestyle, and people see that I’m gay, but I fit in, and I’m successful, and I have great friends and I’m supportive. I have carried a sign and done that, but it's just not my nature of how to handle things.

ED: What kind of advice would you give to your younger self?

RT: Probably, accept yourself a little bit earlier than you did. But, that was hard. That's hard for me to tell my younger self because I lived in it. I was scared to, but for you to know that it'll all come out okay. Just stay true to family. Stay true to loved ones and stay true to yourself. And everything will work out.

ED: Thank you so much. I really appreciated your time this morning. I've learned so much.

Medium

MP4

Rights Holder

The Summersell Center for the Study of the South

Citation for public use.

Ray Taylor, interview by Elena Dixon, Rachel Venglarik, Sasha Epps, Grant Meyer, and Grace Terry, Queer History South, Tuscaloosa, AL, October 31, 2023