Margaret Rose Gladney was born and grew up in Homer, Louisiana. She attended college in Memphis, Tennessee at Southwestern Memphis, going onto the University of Michigan for her master’s. After graduation, she taught in the Tuscaloosa Public School system for two years, then heading to the University of New Mexico Albuquerque for a doctorate in American Studies. After finishing her doctorate in the spring of 1974, she headed back to Tuscaloosa, Alabama to teach at the University of Alabama, where she created the first ever queer studies course at the university titled: Lesbian and Gay Culture. At the same time, she also helped to develop the women’s studies master’s degree program and the African-American studies minor, and in turn, was awarded the Autherine Lucy Foster Award. In 1986, Gladney, along with her close friends, founded the Tuscaloosa Lesbian Coalition in an effort to create more inclusive spaces in the Tuscaloosa community.

 

 

Interviewee: Rose Gladney
Interviewers: Ty Crampton, Madeline Graves, Parker Smith
Date: November 8, 2023

This is an oral history interview with Rose Gladney. It is being conducted on November 8, 2023, over the phone, and concerns her recollections and experiences of being a lesbian woman in the South, as well as her time spent working at the University of Alabama, and her involvement in the Tuscaloosa Lesbian Coalition. The interviewers are Ty Crampton, Madeline Graves, and Parker Smith.

RG: Fine. Okay. All right. Shall we go?

TC: Sure, yes. So, my name is Ty Crampton. I'm the one you’ve been in main contact with.

RG: Good. Okay Ty.

MG: My name is Madeline Graves. I'm from Arkansas. I'm also a part of the team here.

PS: Hi, I'm Parker Smith. I'm from Huntsville. I'm also on this team.

RG: Okay. So we've got Arkansas, Huntsville. And Ty, where are you from?

TC: Philadelphia slash Montgomery. I've lived in both.

RG: Okay, Philly, and Montgomery. Okay. And I'm sorry, I interrupted somebody else. After Parker.

MG: That was it.That's just us three.

RG: Ty, Madeline and Parker. Okay. Alright.

TC: It is a pleasure to get to talk to you.

RG: It's always so easy just to call on the phone, to me. Well, I think you have good questions, and I'll do my best to answer them. And I hope you all will take notes. But if you have any questions at any time, you know, before, during or after, just let me know.

MG: Perfect. So we just kind of wanted to start it off and just ask how you identify and what pronouns you use.

RG: Okay, I identify as lesbian and pronouns, she/her.

MG: Perfect.
TC: Firstly, it is, um, we really appreciate you spending your time to talk to us. I know, Wednesday, in the middle of the day is kind of kinda weird, but we really do appreciate it.

RG: Well, you know, I'm retired. So I can have other things work around you. So that works out just fine. Okay.

TC: Um, do you mind if we ask where you're from?

RG: I'm, I was born in Louisiana and grew up in the town of Homer, which is Northwest Louisiana. Shreveport is the nearest city. And that's, that's where I grew up all my life. You know, I grew up there. And I did not leave until, because I left to go away to college, in Memphis, Tennessee, what is now Rhodes College was Southwestern Memphis, and then to the University of Michigan. After I graduated as an undergraduate, then I went to Michigan for a year for a master's. And I came back and, and taught in Tuscaloosa, Alabama, in the public school system here for two years. It was like 68,69,70. And then I went to the University of New Mexico Albuquerque to do a doctorate in American Studies. And that was 70 to 74. And I finished my doctorate in the spring of 74, and moved to Tuscaloosa, Alabama, to teach at the university in the new college and American Studies. I had a joint appointment initially, and then ended up in American Studies, but always was involved with women's studies, it was in its very beginning stages. And so that was, I mean, I can fill out a whole lot more but that's I'm getting on with the story. Without it, just that one question about where I was from. But anyway, I was, I stayed at the University of Alabama for 29 years, and so moved here. When I retired, I moved to Fernandina Beach, Florida, where I have been ever since.

TC: Awesome.

RG: That was 2003

TC: Okay, awesome to hear. So you've been in the South? Just about your whole life?

RG: Yes, yes. Yeah, Michigan was my first exit. And then New Mexico is a different kind of thing. But definitely, I have stayed with the southeastern United States.

TC: Okay. Great. Thank you so much.

RG: And it's very, it's I'm very much, you know, I, I used to say that I became a Southerner when I went to Michigan, because, because that was when I, you know, it was, that was so clear. I mean, it was pointed out to me by everybody that I met, that I was from, you know, and with it came their particular stereotypes of the South, which you can imagine 68, 69, 70. You know, the, what folks would be saying, and, and, and believing, you know, and that's, I mean, I was a resident advisor in the freshman women's dormitory at Michigan, and one of the other RAS who was an undergraduate, and she told me that she was African American, and she said, when she heard I was coming. She said, now how am I going to get up to the third floor, without going by her room. I mean, it was just instant for her. Her parents had left the South, to get away from, you know, racism and all the other things. And, that was her perspective. And we became good friends, I did not convince her to come to visit me in the south. But we did become good friends. And I learned a lot through talking with her, from her and everything. So go ahead. I can tell stories all day. So you just have to pull me back in, you know, your for your story.

TC: That’s what we’re here for, to hear about your stories. All right, so we're gonna get into some of the written questions that we had.

RG: Okay.

TC: So what specifically brought you to the University of Alabama? And how did your specialization in LGBTQ plus studies in Southern Studies shape your experience here?

RG: Okay. Well, when you think, think back, that I went it was 1970. So, in terms of the women's movement, as you know, coming out of and linked with the civil rights movement, and,
and I had been very much involved in it as much as much as one as I could be within just two years in Memphis teaching, but the civil rights movement there, and I was teaching in Memphis, a school that had been designed to be the model for black and white 50/50, you know, reflecting the population. And over, you know, within a year of its opening, it had become a virtually a black school. And because whites moved out, which was the pattern of racial desegregation. And so I was very much immediately connected with civil rights movement, activism in Memphis, just living there. And also being involved in the first time for organizing teachers in a union. So just just to get into things. And I say all that, because that's from there I went to the University of New Mexico, because I had been teaching 10th Grade English. In a, in a large high school, I had five classes of 10th Grade English, and there may have been five white students altogether, you know, that it just had become instantly a black school. And so I was learning a lot because of that, and also because the civil rights activists was continuing. And so when I said, I remember I went to, I had graduated from college in Memphis, which is how I got to the, to the school. That, you know, why I came back to teach there was they said, See, what was that gonna say? I went, I went to talk to one of my former English professors at the cell. And I said that I wanted to go, I wanted to go back to graduate school because I want I wanted to study African American literature. And his reply was, well, there's no such thing as African American literature.

TC, PS, MG: Wow, whoa.

RG: Yes. I mean, that was just it was, you know, that was like, it was a whole you know, propaganda, you know, some kind of propaganda is not the word to use. But in other words, it didn't, it didn't right the term literature. But he said, if you if that's what you want, then you should look into he named different, different places, you know, but definitely outside the South, well, this New York or California, or it happened that I had been dating a man who was from Arizona. And so I thought, but he said, no, the professor said, you should look into American Studies. That's what he said, that's where I first heard about American Studies, he said, you should look into American Studies, if that's what you want to study. And so turns out that I think the oldest or one of the earliest doctoral programs in American Studies was started at New Mexico. And my having seen the Southwest as someplace that I might want to be for a possible future connection with this, man I was dating at the time. That looked interesting to me, you know, I mean, it turned out, that's where I went, I, without having to go through all the blow by blow. So that's how I got to New Mexico, because I wanted to study African American literature. And you don't do that in a traditional, you know, upstanding English department. So that's, that was the message that I got. So literally the first day that I went, got on the campus, and at the University of New Mexico, I met a graduate student in American Studies who said, who was off to go to somewhere out of the United States to study women's something, he said, she said, You should take, you know, the new women's studies class. And so, and it was, you know, it was just beginning, I had never heard of it. Women's Studies, I never thought I didn't, that's not what I was about, you know, anything like that. But it turns out, I was there, as women's studies was just beginning, at New Mexico and that's how I got, you know, introduced to feminism, feminist ideals, history, literature, you know, everything related to gender, and as well as race. So, getting all the gender, you know, gender, race, and class all lumped all together, which is what an interdisciplinary department should be about, you know, does fortunately include, so that's how that's, I mean, that was just all new to me. In that, but, but I, you know, I learned, you know, it's tremendous. I learned a lot and that's where I sat in on what was the first official Women's Studies class offered. And it was an undergraduate class, but I wanted to see what it was about. So I just asked if I could sit in. And the professor said the first day as we went around the class and introduced ourselves and said where we're from and she said, you're from the South you must read Lillian Smith, Killers of the Dream. And that's so I wrote that down and ultimately, I did find that in the library and checked it out, and that's what changed everything in my life, about where, what direction I was going in. And ultimately, of course, when I, when I came to Alabama, and read more and learned more and began to teach Lillian Smith, Killers of the Dream and Strange Fruit and her work, and found out too, that there were other people who were, looking, you know, researching her. And I think, you know, I've been there a couple of years, I think, Alabama when I first went up, and met her partner, for years, Paula Snelling. And her and little sister, Esther, and other people that had known her and worked with her, some of whom were lesbian some who weren't. But anyway, that was, that became the focus of my original focus my, what I worked on, as the dissertation was looking at the southern segregation Academy movement, the private schools that were started to specifically avoid public school desegregation. Because, and my, my family were very much instrumental in starting the white private school in my hometown, and where my younger brothers and sisters ended up, at least two or three of them ended up going here and graduating from high school, and what was in effect Desegregation Academy. And there's, there's a, and it was the whole thing was about, you know, avoiding desegregation. So, and that's what I wrote my dissertation on for my doctorate, but all of this is kind of getting jumbled up to you. But that's, that's how I, I got to Alabama, because in the doctoral program in American Studies, there was a young man who was I guess, I'd been there a couple of years, and he was finishing his doctorate. And he got a job offer at Tuscaloosa at The University of Alabama, and in this, you know, he was like, not excited, about going there. He was, he was definitely a Northeasterner, and, but he needed a job, he was married and had children. And so and I, other people said, well, you know, we're glad you got the job, cause you need a job and, and I said, Sam, you go there and get busy and hire me. Because, to me, the idea of going back to the South was very important. You know, I mean, especially as I began working with the whole segregation Academy movement, and dealing with racism and class, and all that, that went into that, and as well as my own relationships with my family, and so, and besides women's studies you know, I mean, it was all everything about studies, quote, you know, has to be interdisciplinary and has to bring in all those things.

MG: Absolutely.

RG: So anyway, that's what happened. Sam Gurgis went to University of Alabama and got a job there. And when I was in my senior year, I mean, my last semester, in New Mexico, I was working, you know, how you have to when students had to register in person, pre register and sign up for classes and everything. Well, the graduate students, you know, work, work the tables, and so I came back from the from the fall registration stuff, and then and there was at the secretary's office in New Mexico. She said that I had, I had a call from Sam Gurgis. And it turned out he wanted me to come interview at Alabama. And so that's how I got to Alabama because, Sam did exactly what I had told him to do, although I didn't know he could. He had gotten busy and had openings in, American Studies was growing, American Studies at University of Alabama. So I went from New Mexico back to South and to the University of Alabama. And so that was 74. And you, you know, probably of her if you don't know her professor Alice Parker. Did you know her?

TC: I can't say I’ve heard of her.

RG: Well, she was, she and her husband were both professors at the University of Alabama. She was, by the time I got there, she was divorced. But she, she and Dr. Elizabeth Macy came about the same time I did. But they really, they really started the Women's Studies program. And that was just getting started, when I was,  the first year that I was there. But they had, the course had been offered. Like through the new college, women's studies, or women's history or something like that, and Alice had started that. And, and because she was on the faculty of new college, too. So I that's how I kind of got it, you know, immediately introduced to women's faculty who were working with feminism and developing an interested in women's studies. So all of those things just kept coming together. And so that's so when I went and interviewed and got, was offered a joint appointment in the new college and American Studies. And I said, I wanted to teach a class on women in the south. So that was the first time that was offered and that became I mean, I kind of built all around that but getting into doing more research on Lillian Smith and her work also meant uncovering her own her lesbian relationship with Paula Snelling for years that was never acknowledged as such. And dealing, you know, talking about that, and dealing with writing about her and the family's resistance to any, any idea that, that she was less than, you know, it was just taboo. But anyway, all those things became part of what I was doing, I guess, is what I'm saying, though, over the over years, it didn't happen all in one day. I'm just kind of jumping around. But so when I got to 74 in the fall of 74. There were definitely active women who were lesbian. And let me see how to, it is through, I'm trying to get us up to when we started The Tuscaloosa Lesbian Coalition. But that was, that was, that's several years later. I need I need to have my dates down for you. But at this moment, it's coming. It's coming through Women's Studies and American studies that the opportunity to teach and to become involved with students who were organizing and also to attend the women's conferences, and definitely deal with women who are lesbian and the art and the culture and the history and all but you know, it just it just grows. I'm being very vague for you but, Women's Studies class, and then wanting to teach also and also teaching African American literature and in whatever else I was teaching about the South, you just cannot not teach African American History and Literature. But that's not the same as African American Studies. I know that, but that was, I was connected is what I'm saying. And it's so, that interest in that as you said, you know, the work in LGBTQ and, and minority studies comes from having John Howard, whom you may have heard of, John Howard came as a grad student at the University of Alabama. And he was primarily interested in he was in he was involved in LGBTQ you know, the organizations and, and then was very much interested in teaching and studying queer history was what he went on to become known for in his, when he went into his doctorate, but he helped, he was really instrumental, and helping me to offer the first course, as a, you know, GLBTQ as a course. And through American Studies, that, as Tim Salem said, he was the chair of American Studies. And when I talked with him about wanting to have to offer such a course, he said, Okay, let's get your tenure first. And so, and my tenure was called in question, I mean, I was denied, and I had to sue the university to get it. But once we got all that straightened out, and that took a few years, then we offered the first course, that was literally called, you know, Lesbian and Gay Culture. So, or, or LGBTQ culture, whatever. And I'm being vague, just because I don't have it written down, but we could certainly, you know, we can, I can find it, and write it down for you. But anyway, that was the that's, I'm telling you kind of how I got into things. And how we were able to offer that after, after I, I got tenure, because I sued the university and won, and then started offering that class with John Howard working with me, and he, he was it was very much a team caught course. And, and that's, that in the, it's all part of LGBTQ  organizing students, students organized, I mean, but it tended to be more male than female. It's kind of like separate, women's studies through women's studies, women's organizations and, and lesbian activities and also the oh, whatever. I'm trying to think of, you know, that would be the lesbian, lesbian, gay women. Oh, I'm trying to say not, not just not academic conferences, but just organized and meeting Mike in the summer for two weeks, in the Georgia mountains or up in, you know, in Music Fest. Oh, it's the music festivals. That's what it was. The music festivals were big, you know, as women's women's music festivals, and in terms of queer folks getting, you know, connected and, and the culture and the music and the writing and everything. Well, Marsha Winter, who was a graduate student in American Studies and Women's Studies. She was getting her master's in both, and she and I and others organized the Tuscaloosa lesbian coalition. Elizabeth Macy, Alice Parker, I don't I can't remember names, but when it was the Tuscaloosa Lesbian Coalition was intentionally not just not a university only thing in fact, it wasn't. We didn't meet on the campus. We met in people's homes, you know, it was it was any much more related to lesbian women in Tuscaloosa and beyond the because there was there were Southern, you know, there were regional meetings, there were folks coming over from Mississippi and, you know, they just were just organizing, you know, and meeting and sharing music and literature and ideas and just meeting and having potlucks, the infamous potlucks that went on and on forever, anyway. And there were at the same time, lesbian women were organizing regionally, as well as nationally, and the southern, Southern Regional, first Southern Regional list lesbian conference was we helped organize and it wasn't in Tuscaloosa. It was in Atlanta.

RG: Not just academic conferences, but just organized and meeting, like in the summer for two weeks, in the Georgia mountains or up in, you know, in music festivals. Oh, it's the music festivals. That's what it was. The music festivals were big. You know, women's music festivals, and in terms of queer folks getting, you know, connected, and the culture and the music and the writing and everything.
 
RG: Well, Marsha Winter, who was a graduate student in American Studies and Women's Studies. She was getting her master's in both and she and I and others organized the Tuscaloosa Lesbian Coalition. Elizabeth Macy, Alice Parker. I can't remember names, but when it was the Tuscaloosa Lesbian Coalition, it was intentionally not just a university-only thing. In fact, we didn't meet on the campus. We met in people's homes, you know, it was any. Muchmore related to lesbian women in Tuscaloosa and beyond. Because there were Southern, you know, there were regional meetings. There were folks coming over from Mississippi and, you know, they were just organizing, you know, and meeting and sharing music and literature and ideas and just meeting having potlucks. You know, the infamous potlucks that went on and on forever. Anyway, there were at the same time lesbian women organizing regionally, as well as nationally. And the Southern Regional, first Southern Regional lesbian conference we helped organize and it wasn't in Tuscaloosa. It was in Atlanta. But we were very much a part of that.  
 
RG: And so Minnie Bruce Pratt, you know, who is from Alabama graduate from Alabama. And she and Marsha actually had known each other as children, because Marsha had an aunt in the same town where Minnie Bruce grew up. And so, they just knew each other. They played together in the summer. But Minnie Bruce, you know who she is? Or do you? Minnie Bruce Pratt?  
 
PS: I'm not sure just
 
MG: It sounds familiar.
 
TC: It does sound familiar.
 
RG: She just died this year, this last year.  
 
MG: We’re so sorry.
 
RG: And she and her partner was oh, gosh, well, if you look her up, you'll find her. But she was she was a graduate of the University of Alabama before I got there, but when we were working with kind of organizing Southern, lesbian, gay folk, we ended up, you know, in conferences and stuff like that. We ended up connecting with her. And with her partner at the time, who was Jeb. You know Jeb Bush? Not Jeb Bush. You know Joan Byron, Joanny Byron. She's an incredibly wonderful photographer. Lesbian, from DC, I think.  
 
RG: Anyway, when the conference with the women, and gays, we're organizing national conferences and things held in DC and you know, all these things. We, Tuscaloosa Lesbian Coalition, were in on it and connected with folks all around through the summer conferences, arts, and activities, Also, you know, are forming of Tuscaloosa Lesbian Coalition was trying to bring to Tuscaloosa what some of us had found by going to these conferences and in groups outside, you know, outside of Tuscaloosa. And getting in touch with it and when they organized regionally we were very much a part of it. And folks came from all over Alabama to be part of that. And so it was connected with lesbian and gay activism that was growing in the 70s and 80s and 90s. So, Tuscaloosa Lesbian Coalition I think lasted for 10 years. And I think pretty much it was intentionally trying to, you know, be outside the university- be not just a university group, but to be very much a community group and worked with, with gays, men who were outside the university, as well as some who were in.  
 
RG: But it was, you know, intentionally trying to be available in interested in and supportive of lesbians, bisexual, trans work art folks. You know, to get together and do things, and that lasted about a decade, I think. In the 80s and early 90s. Maybe even, I'd have to go back and look to get to this specific dates, but I think I've given you a lot of generalities right now. But if you want to call me back in and ask me something specific to get me where you want me to go? Listen to ask me another question.  
 
PS: This is awesome. Thank you for talking to us about this. Um, let's see, what should we ask? What would be natural?
 
TC: You've given us a lot. Yeah. We’re trying to sift through and see what we haven't asked you yet.
 
RG: Well, there are of a lot of your questions that I haven't answered.
 
TC: You want to do the one about the landscape?
 
RG: How is the landscape of LGBTQ studies and minority studies evolved at UA?
 
TC: You’re way ahead of us, yeah.
 
RG: I don't know. What do you mean?  
 
PS: Just kind of a landscape?
 
MG: How has it been perceived? Are there more now than you've seen in the past? That's, you know, more of an obvious one. But just kind of mainly how it's been received by your colleagues.
 
RG: Okay. Well, I'll tell you this. To have a class that was called LGBTQ studies, you know, that was called Tuscaloosa Lesbian and Gay Culture. On, you know, the class roll, I mean, on something that you could, that was public, you know, that you could sign up for. That initial class, I remember, there were students who were very much afraid to sign up for that. I mean, they, they were interested, but we're afraid if they signed up for then their parents would find out and not pay for it. You know what I mean? Yeah, you're dealing with. And I don't begin to say that that's not happening right now. It's, it's very much it's still very much around, and still very much a part of what we do. But that was the first thing when I remember when I was talking with the head of American Studies, Jim Salem, about wanting to have this class on LGBT history or studies or something like that. Whatever we said, we weren't just history. But to offer such a course on the books. And Jim said, “Okay, but let's get your tenure first.” And then so that, you know, let's get that secure. And then when the course was offered and put out, we did the only really negative, overtly negative thing that happened initially was that there was a professor in the history department, I think, who was you know, questioning, it is being a legitimate thing. Just like, I don't know, if you remember, no, you don't probably couldn't have. But initially, when African American literature was taught, a class on African American literature was taught in the English department. It was, there was all kinds of resistance to that happening. When I first came to University of Alabama, there wasn't an African American studies program, but it was being organized, you know, in fact, a black faculty member was in the Religious Studies program. And, and that was- they were working, you know, students were working to be organized and to have classes taught to have that be part of the legitimate program. And ultimately, of course, even as a major or minor. And, and we were able to get it done through American Studies. And, ultimately, to be a separate, you know, but then it became part of women's studies and African American Studies, It was always, is always a political struggle to get those courses recognized as legitimate courses. And that's the same thing that we were, you know, that we had to struggle with, to get GLBT history, literature offered. Or part of courses, so that students could get credit for it. And through something like the new college or otherwise could perhaps create their own major, you know. For their own particular individual thing, but there was always resistance to it. And you always had to deal with that, with politics within the university. And as well as outside. But I remember, Lee-Ann Adrian, do you know her? She taught in American Studies, and was ultimately the chair of American Studies, but it's probably been 10 years ago, six years ago. She said to me- she was the other woman in American stuff, I was the only one-but and then we hired her- and that she said, you know, it was she was just when she would go to national, American Studies, conferences or whatever. And people would be talking about queer studies, or teaching women's this or GLBT. And people would be amazed when she said, we have a class in the American Studies program at the University of Alabama. That is GLBTQ History and Culture. You know, it was rare. Other people were fighting and working to do it, but to have it be listed, you know, have it be recognized as part of what was publicly there was a big deal. Then that was, you know, in the 90s. Now, where were we? We were talking about? Where else did we want to go with that? Or where else do you want to go with that?
 
PS: Well, we actually had a couple of questions that are about campus, not necessarily the education. Do you think campus is a safer place than it used to be for queer youth? Back then there were a lot of secret meetings, so your places, or is it like, was it better back then? Or do you think it's better now that we have public safe spaces?
 
RG: You know, it’s interesting, that question because it is and it isn't. It’s there, like you say. And There was a time, you know, when we, when the GLBT students, and Marsha and I were faculty advisors to that organization at some point. We're working to get faculty to put a sign on their door, if it was a safe place. And that, you know, so being aware of the need for that. And students being afraid and fearful and discriminated against and all that. And to work to have that kind of acceptance. That was that was all a part of these things that I've been talking about, you know, in terms of the 80s and 90s. And I think it is, I don't know how to say, I think it's, it's certainly different in that you all are doing what you're doing. You know, and you're now working on your history at the University of Alabama. Not just history in terms of 1000s of years ago, you know, or what have you. You are working on and you are talking with people who can say this is what we had to do in order to meet in different ways. And it's certainly over the kind of 10 years that we were dealing with openly organizing, and having programs, and inviting speakers, and performances, and all those things to come and be part of- and John Howard's time was corresponding with that, because he was working on his master's in American Studies and he helped me, worked with me in teaching that first course.  
 
RG: But I guess, I'm very much aware that there's still all kinds of resistance. And people still have to deal with their, within their families and their parents, and this threat of being disowned or thrown out ,or silenced in some other way, or feeling discriminated against and doubting, your own self-worth. Which is I know, it's I don't think that's been conquered by any means. I know. But at the same time we have we have folks dealing with questions. I mean, I guess, in one ways the very fact that there is so much resistance and nationally, internationally fear through what's taught, I mean, it seems like to me, I mean, it's horrible what's happened in the state of Florida, and the closing down of tall kinds of things progressing. But, the resistance is very much there. And there's no question that, but at the same time, at least we have a visibly published history. And conferences, and meetings, and connecting, and sharing. Sharing this history that shows that you absolutely have to be informed and willing to claim the amazingly wonderful heritage that we have. And we do! I mean, they're just grand folks! To know and to- and it hasn't- and if I may be, you know, wildly out there, I guess this there is no end struggle. To be the human beings that we aspire to be, that we want to be. To have people live with affirmation and know their worth, and that is as true for gender or sexuality identities and relationships as it is, in terms of these words we call race and class. And they are all the ways that we, as human beings, find to somehow put people down or are put them on a pedestal. The ways that we work against our full human affirmation and growth are endless. And this is one of them. But it is, it shares a lot with, with other things, and other ways of thinking that are less than affirming, less than encouraging, less, you know, less than really creating the kind of life and world that we want to live in.  
 
RG: So, I'm getting way too vague and theoretical.
MG: No you’re doing great.
 
RG: But that's I guess I'm saying it's not that they're all the same, it's just that our ways of, of dealing with difference. There are similarities, that we can compare, and we can learn from, and we can see. And we can learn to value. So, when you ask about are we the same or different? Like that question that you said, do you think the campus is safer place than it used to be for queer youth? Was it better with secrets? Or is it better? Now, it seems better. To me, that really seems better. And the fact that we are talking to each other, and you're talking with me, and that we're seeing that we have these, you know, that we do have a history that we can draw from and that we need to keep alive.
 
RG: I don't know what the what the course offerings are at the university now, but the fact that this is part of your class?  
 
PS: Yeah, for sure.
 
RG: This is really important to me. But I mean, it's exactly what we were working for. You know?
 
PS: That’s so great.  
 
RG: Yeah. And we have to keep working at it. Any kind of- if you're looking at anything for social justice of any sort, I think you quickly find out that there is you know, that you can you have- you can draw a lot of strength and appreciation from what has gone before you. And you have to still realize that it takes, as this whole thing goes, eternal vigilance is the price of liberty. You have to keep going. You know, you have to keep working at it. But that doesn't mean that it's not worth doing or that we're not making any progress. Or, you know, you can't- that you can sit down and not worry about it anymore.  
 
TC: Yeah.  
 
RG: Because we do have to keep being open, standing, saying what we see, saying what we need, and working to help others achieve and come along with us, I guess.
 
MG: Absolutely.
 
MG: Just kind of like in regards to always, you know, planning something always continuing to do to do the work. Are there any specific projects or initiatives you're currently working on or planning that you'd like to share with us?
 
RG: Well, I still want to write my own story. And I guess that's my, that's my biggest one. And when you ask me these questions, it helps to remind me that I still have to get it down. I've got to get it down. Because it is important to have and to share I continue to work with the Lillian Smith Center which is connected with- I don't know how much if you know any, how much you know about Lillian Smith and the camp that she had, a girls camp that she had, that is now part of the Lillian Smith Center in Georgia, connected with Piedmont college. So that's an ongoing project. I mean, I'm on the advisory board along with other folks and in the Smith family and people that connected with that college. That you know, that that are working and trying to, to work with students at not only students at that college, but with people in the come all kinds of folks who come and do research work and do their own writing and artwork and things like that. You know, to keep all the things that she cared about, and that people still care about alive. So that's, that's too much to put down. And anything that's done just sound too vague and rambling. But if you look up the Lillian Smith Center at Piedmont College in Georgia. That's a big thing that I'm on- I'm just on the advisory board, that's all but that's, that's important to me. And music is still important to me. And one of the wonderful things is that I'm still singing a song with an all women's group called Song spinners and a large mix chorus here in front of Dania Beach, called the island singers and I love it.  
 
MG: That's so great. I love that too.  
 
RG: Yeah. That's great. So, look at your notes, look at your questions. What else do you need? What would you like to make this? Speak to? Or is have we done it? Then all the damage we can do?
 
MG: We're just gonna check real quick.
 
PS: Just checking our notes.
 
MG: You've got good stuff.  
 
RG: I noticed one of the things you asked me was about the Autherine Lucy award.  
 
MG: Yes.
 
PS: Authoring Lucy foster award as well.  
 
TC: We’re muted.  
 
RG: That was on the list of questions.  
 
MG, PS, TC: Yes.
 
MG: Yes. We would love to know like what that recognition meant to you and your career and you know what it meant to finally be recognized for the work that you've done.
 
RG: Well, that was fairly early in my career. I mean, although it says ‘87. Yeah, I guess, it meant A great deal to me because I was in my- I was I was focused on the history and culture of the South, the American South and what happened in terms of desegregation, the resistance to it, and the accomplishment of it, you know what folks had to do to desegregate schools and keep them that way. Because, you know, as I tell you, my first teaching experience was in a school that was supposed to be 50/50. And it had, in the second year of its operation already become virtually 95% Black. And that kind of the recognition with the Autherine Lucy Foster award. That was the biggest surprise of my life. At that point, I mean, I always remember Lillian Adrian came and said, you know- do you still have the honors day?  
 
MG: Yes.
 
RG: Where would you gather on the quad? Yes. Okay. So, so it was, it was honors day and gathering on the quad. And I didn't have any particular idea that out, you know, to go there. I knew that it was happening. But anyway, that was, and land came in and said, and as soon as I came in, it was literally was in the women's bathroom and 10, who were and she said, she said, Let's go on over to, to the quad said, I think I think Cleo is going to be recognized or something. And Cleo was in one of the first classes I taught in American Studies. And, and I thought, well, you know, that's nice, but I really was not, I just didn't have a clue. And But Lin may persuaded me, said, you know, come on, it won't take long. And so she got me over there in time for him to call me to recognize, and I was absolutely blown away. Absolutely. But it was it, I must say Clio still keeps me going, keeps me in line. I still, we of course or, you know, I'm on I'm on his email list. And, and he is on mine. So we I still keep up with him and him continuing to be educated on Clio. But the, I guess that I had talked about, of course, authoring Lucy, and who she was in the desegregation student at the University of Alabama, and it was her daughter was in a class that I taught. Just, you know, she just, just another student, I didn't, I had not met her. And then after I met her, and she, of course, and I was there, and I knew who she was when she got that award. So, that was quite wonderful. And then she came and talked in my classes more than once, you know, these two or three times, but anyway, that was that was really an amazing experience and remains, remains of a wonderful part of, of having been in Alabama, you know, to-- to know her in a in a way and have students know her because through the years, I mean, I remember she talked to me about her daughter because she was concerned about her daughter not doing whatever she was wanting her to do university. But, but I also had students, one particular student me how as a mother as a Japanese and came to the University of Alabama to do graduate work in American Studies, and she just was so inspired by authoring Lucy and who she was and she, She visited with her and interviewed her and has kept up with her through the years.

MG: That sounds amazing.

RG: Yeah, it's I could I think, I don't know how to say this, but it's just students. Knowing students, and being a part of the process of learning, learning together, sharing what it means to keep growing. In this culture of ours that always is challenging. It's a, I've always learned from students.

MG: That's amazing,

RG: And continue and continue to do so. My goodness--

PS: -- learning, nice.

RG: I’m sorry, what?

PS: Nothing, I said it was nice that you could learn from each other, I guess.

RG: Oh, yes it is. Well, I think that’s probably true for most people who are interested in learning, Don’t you think?

TC: Absolutely.

PS: I hear sometimes you don’t expect to learn from students when you’re the teacher, that’s all.
RG: Well, all right, one of the ways that I learned was asking students to go and learn from people that they knew or write about, interview, you know, someone that they knew connected with whatever course we were studying. And that was often their family. And members of their family, certainly. In the Women in the South class, always had people, you know, write about at least, you know, a couple of different generations in their family, by talking with that. And, and, and I remember Miho, who was coming from Japan and took that class. And then she got, you know, one of the students that she was friends with, to take her to meet his mother. You know, so that she would have a woman who grew up in the South, the interview that is just always there, just, you know, everybody, to me, everybody has something to teach us. And it's so much, it's so interesting, to get people to talk about their own lives.  

MG: Well, we love doing it as well, and we’re loving hearing from you!  

RG: Well, I appreciate that. I really do. It's, I was, I was actually surprised when you-- when I got this, and I looked, and I realized that it was only last year, wasn't it? That, that we had that meeting with students. Marsha and I came in? Wasn’t it?

MG: With Dr. Giggie?  

PS: Yes,  

RG: Yes, yes. Yes. Yep. And that seems like ages ago. Have you been busy? We've been busy.  

MG: We’ve been busy, for sure.  

RG: Yeah.  

RG: So but, but this is, but there was a history class that came. And we talked after the kind of the Women's Center or whatever was the center that had invited us to come and speak, after that. We all had lunch and then and the students from the history class came over and we talked too, so I thought it's just last year. Yeah,  

MG: Time has flown by.  
 
RG: But but your professor is not the same professor who taught it last year. Is that right?  
MG: We have Dr. Giggie... did that last year ?

TC: I think so  

RG: Well, I don't know. I can claim ignorance because I don't remember. And I couldn't. So anyway, you can ask that professor. That's what I really was interested in knowing. Okay. I'll tell you what I remember. T he interesting thing about that class was that they weren't as a part of doing the history was they were doing a map.  

TC: Yeah.
 
MG: Yep.  

PS: We looked at it

RG: You did?  

MG: We did.  

RG: And they had the place where we all met out at the lake. Something and another end where?Annabelle Stevens and pat her partner. Yeah. They were very you know who were very much part of the Tuscaloosa lesbian coalition.  

PS: yeah we were told to decipher it on our first day  
 
RG: so and so you had you had on the map where Tuscaloosa lesbian coalition met. And it was it was our house on on Queen City 1204 Queen City avenue. That was our house, and there was also Elizabeth Macy and Alice Parker's house and Annabelle and Pat's home out at the lake. And that what was once a school or something that was out at the lake and that had become a place for meetings that we had the the Southern Regional lesbian coalition conference, whatever that was, that was held in Atlanta, but we had meetings in preparation for that conference that in different places around in the southeast, and, and TLC was part of it. And so we met out there at the lake to have a place large enough for people to come from South Alabama and Mississippi and, and be part of the planning. It was a wonderful time. Yeah. And oh, and I'll tell you the funny backstory of that, which you may have already heard is, in order to get access to that, that school, formerly a school—it was no longer active, you know, but but the building was there. And so, but to get it, it was, supposedly it was being it was being used for family reunions, you know, people to have a family, a place to go and, and meet and large enough to have you know, you know, big enough thing to have a kitchen and do stuff be around and also be at the lake. So we wanted it to have as a place to meet for those people who were coming from all around. To, to plan to be part of planning for that southeastern regional Women's Studies conference. Our women are lesbian, wasn’t just women that was lesbian. Okay. That was an Atlanta, LGBT. Anyway, but it was women, it wasn’t-- So anyway to do that, I couldn't go to the school board and ask to do that, to have that, that place for two days or a day for, you know, a lesbian and gay meeting or a lesbian meeting. So I, I asked for a Gladney family reunion. Which was a lie, you know, but I mean, and, and that was in Ralph, do you know, the names Ralph and Marjorie Knowles?
TC: I can’t say I recognize it.

RG: Marjorie Knowles was a law professor at the University of Alabama, all during the years that I was there. Ralph Knowles was a lawyer. Ralph and cha. Dre grew up. They were students when they went to University of Alabama's undergraduates, and then they went to law school. And, and then they practice law in Tuscaloosa. They were the, they were the ones that defended me when I sued the university to get tenure. Anyway, and Marjorie was a very active strong feminist and huge role model for women and law and anywhere else. But anyway. So I had persuaded Marjorie, to be part of the TLC. She wasn't real excited about doing that. But I told her, you know, it was Coalition for it didn't mean you were lesbian. But anyway, it was good because when I went to the, to the school to get that I was afraid they were going to sue me, you know, I sue us or what something the school board about having that meeting but Ralph, backed us up, somehow we were able to do it not and we didn't get thrown out. Those are just little sidelines. Highlights in the, in the bumpy road. But that was a great, it was a, it was a great thing, because it just added to people coming from all around lesbian activist coming from all real-- literally, outside of Tuscaloosa, you know, and the campus and everything coming from Mississippi and Auburn and strange places like that. So they-- before to plan for what ultimately was in Atlanta. Okay.

PS: Let's see what else we got.
 
RG: Yeah, what else have you?

PS: Okay, this is kind of off. It's not like off topic or anything, it's just a little bit of a different type of question than what we were talking about. So, if one of let's see. i Sorry, if one of your family members had come up to you, what's one piece of advice you might give them?
RG: Oh yeah, I remember youre telling me asking that question. Well I would want, I would want to say in terms of advice I would say be who you are, and talk with, talk with about your feelings and your concerns. And to say that there are other members of our family that will be equally supportive. And that, and as well as those that may not be know. But when you I saw that question that you had, what you put it down on the questions that you sent me, and I thought, I remembered when I came out when I talked with my older sister, and she said, I know. And she said, and I said, Well, why didn't you say something? And she said that wasn't for her to say, you know, but anyway, then my, when I talked with the big thing was coming out to my parents. And I wrote him a letter. And my, my mother's reply was, do you think this is what God wants you to do? That was you know, her, and of course, made sense in terms of her, you know, the many messages from Christianity and other religions that this is not right. But But I thought I've often thought of that. And and I thought it was to her credit, that she asked me that I think it was what God wanted me to do. Because that was that she was giving it in a way I saw that as her asking for my understanding of what I thought the teachings were that she always thought some other way, you know, and the other thing was And then my father said, he said, it's, you know, it's all right or not all right, that's not what he said. He just said, you just don't need to shout it from the rooftops. But that's the that's the another funny thing that he said was, he talked about, he told me a story about one of my father's a doctor, general practice surgeon. And he said that one of his patients was had said, some comment about his, his own children, about having all kinds of, you know, his children were all kinds, you know, and, and it's like, I don't know that this is a word, but it's like, someone will be like horrors, and some will be like, you know, I mean, just name all these different things. But they're all my children. I, in my mind, I thought I could go there with that, you know, is that what you think? I mean, you know, but I knew that's not what he was saying. He was just saying, you know, we know all kinds of folks. And they're, they're people who we know and love and care about, you know. And so it wasn't going to make a big deal. But but you don't have to shout it from the rooftops. Yes, you do. But anyway, that was always always different. Every every is different as individuals or in your family, you know, the responses. Fortunately, basically, the message was still, you know, when I view, you know, that's, that's basically still the message. So I'm fortunate in that way. Yeah.

TC: I know that last one was a little heavy. Do you maybe need a second? Just um like a quick little pause between?
RG: Oh no I-- Well when I think of my family now, we're all you know, we're all 40 years older. I mean, anyway, that's a whole, oh those are just just different things. You know, I guess, one of the things that, that has always been important to me, was when, when Marcia has come-- came with me to meet my family, and to be and has, you know, through the years, there's always been a welcoming ease with, with being with, with being with us. And with being with her, you know, and that relationship, that means a great deal. And equally, you know, our family, her children who are now mine and her grandchildren and great grandkids who are all you know, we're all going to see for Thanksgiving. I mean, all welcoming and inclusive. Yeah, so we're extremely fortunate in that way.

MG: Of course, well, I'm so sorry, Doctor Gladney, but unfortunately, we're gonna have to wrap it up. But we just wanted to thank you so so so much for speaking with us.

PS: Thank you.

TC: Thank you so much.

RG: It's been my pleasure. And I, I hope that I hope you've gotten some of what you want. And that if you think of anything else in what,

MG: We will

RG: Call me up again, we will not fool with Zoom.

MG: We won’t fool with Zoom, we’ll just talk. Well, we, we will send you a follow up email, for sure. But if we need to call you back, we'll figure that out.

RG: All right. Okay, good luck with it all. I'm delighted. I'm delighted that you have the course.

MG: We are too.

RG: Okay. All right.

PS: have a lovely day thank you

RG: thank you bye